Hot Water and Heating Linked???

[ken long]

Hi,

This is my first post. Thanks to the admin and creators for providing such a useful community forum for all things plumbing.

I have little (read NO) experience in plumbing other than the pain of paying cowboy plumbers to fix trivial matters. That's not to say all plumbers are cowboys - my last plumber was amazing actually and charged me very little for what was a very easy job (FOR HIM!!!).

Anyway, back on topic.

My family and I recently moved into a new property. It has gas central heating and this is controlled by a boiler (?) The boiler controls are quite easy to work out: ON ONCE, TWICE, CONTINUALLY, or OFF. There are also timer settings for both Morning and Night.

The problem I have is that there are two sliders for the above options. I would assume one is for the Hot Water and one is for the Gas Central Heating but they both have the same label on them which says GAS AND HOT WATER. But these labels have been stuck on and underneath each label is written GAS, for one of the sliders and HOT WATER for the other. I have tried different combinations but I can't seem to just get the Hot Water on WITHOUT also switiching on the4 GAS Central Heating. Are they linked? Am I doing something wrong? Its the middle of August and the central heating is on!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

ken

 

[doitmyself]

The fact that both labels now say "Gas and Water" suggest that you can't have one without the other; which is strange to say the least. It can happen with pumped heating/gravity hot water systems, even then you can have Hot Water by itself in the summer but heating and hot water in the winter.

Can you post more info about your system. Pics would be useful as well.

Make and model of boiler
Make model of time control
Do you have a pump - usually a big red thing labelled Grundfos with a valve either side?
Do you have motorized valves - looks like a square metal box stuck on top of the pipe?
Do you have a room thermostat?
Do you have a hot water cylinder thermostat - located about 18 inches up the side of the cylinder?

 

[ken long]

doitmyself

thank you so much for your reply.

I'd just like to apologise to forum members about the cowboy remark. It wasn't my intention to offend. Its just I finished paying £160 to get my washing machine connected FFS! So I hope you can understand my disillusionment. I also went British as I want to support the industry.

I will get pictures up. I have all the components you mention.

In the meantime:

1. The boiler is a Potterton Suprima
2. The Timer thing is a Honeywell

The boiler has flashing red light sometimes which according to the instructions pasted on the side may mean a "lockout" whatever that means. I have reset it a few times since we have moved here.

I have the big red thing you mention. The brand is Zilmet. There is also the other components you mention but I think a picture would probably help more than my uninformed description.

Thank you for your time.

ken

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Interesting reminds me of an old way of ng things. Basically pumped central heating and gravity hot water. You where required to turn the pump off to get hot water only. So the label should read HOT WATER----HOT WATER AND CENTRAL HEATING, the problem was you could not turn the HOT WATER off.

 

[doitmyself]

I will get pictures up.

That will be very helpful

I have the big red thing you mention. The brand is Zilmet.

That's not a pump. It's an expansion vessel. A pump looks something like this:

Central Heating Pumps available at Plumbworld

 

[ken long]

That will be very helpful


That's not a pump. It's an expansion vessel. A pump looks something like this:

Central Heating Pumps available at Plumbworld

The one on the left is mine. Grundfos.

 

[doitmyself]

The one on the left is mine. Grundfos.

We're getting there

Now for the pics. Don't do close ups - it's the overall layout of the components which we need to see.

 

[ken long]

OK. Cool! (or warm actually!)

I'm still at work. Will dig around for the digital camera tonight and get everything up hopefully tonight.

Cheers!

ken

OK. Here we go:

Just realised these are inverted (mirror effect)

 

[doitmyself]

Thanks for the pics but, as I said, one showing the overall view would be more help.

I can't see any motorized valves. They will look something like this

H/WELL V4043H 1056 22MM ZONE VLV 240V Honeywell Motorised Valves Motorised Valves Central Heating Controls BHL


or this

H/WELL V4073A 1062 1 MIDPOSN VLV 24OV Honeywell Motorised Valves Motorised Valves Central Heating Controls BHL

 

[ken long]

Right OK.

I'll have another look and take some better pics.

Thanks for your time.

 

[ken long]

Hi again. Sorry for the lengthy absence. Lots of other things going on with the property and this slipped down the list.

So, I haven't managed to separate the hot water from the heating. But I did turn off all radiators (by turning the valves).

First question: Is this still using gas even though the radiators are off?

Second thing, I couldn't find any other things to take pictures of. The motorized valve you mentioned. Just couldn't see it. I'm getting lockouts more and more frequently and we are having cold showers now in the beginning of winter.

Second Question (well 2 really): What the heck is a lockout and why is it happening?

Now, I'm used to those combi boilers which don't use water tanks. The kind where hot water and heating are on demand.

Third Question: Is it worth changing the whole system over? I've been quoted £600-700 for the labour (including flushing) and anywhere between £500 and £4K for the boiler. Will I be saving money in the long run by doing this? It just seems so archaic to heat water in a tank.

The flat is 3 bedroom and has 6 radiators.

I will have another look for the valves. When the tank starts up in the morning (before lockout) it makes a sound like someone dropping a stone in the loo.

Thanks for any advice.

regards,

ken

 

[doitmyself]

I haven't managed to separate the hot water from the heating. But I did turn off all radiators (by turning the valves).

First question: Is this still using gas even though the radiators are off?

Gas is only used when the boiler is alight.

Second thing, I couldn't find any other things to take pictures of. The motorized valve you mentioned. Just couldn't see it.

Forget the photo and the motorized valve for a moment. We need to work what the pipe work does. Can you trace the pipe work from the boiler via the pump to the HW cylinder and the first rad and post a sketch?

Second Question (well 2 really): What the heck is a lockout and why is it happening?

It means the boiler is overheating for some reason, usually lack of flow, so the overheat thermostat shuts the boiler off.

Third Question: Is it worth changing the whole system over? I've been quoted £600-700 for the labour (including flushing) and anywhere between £500 and £4K for the boiler. Will I be saving money in the long run by doing this? It just seems so archaic to heat water in a tank. The flat is 3 bedroom and has 6 radiators.

That's really up to you. A modern boiler will be more efficient than your old one, but the saving on your gas bill will take years to pay for the cost of installation. Though you may get it back when you sell the flat as it will improve the Energy Rating of the flat.

In a small flat a combi boiler may not be the best solution as the heating requirement is much lower than the hot water requirement.

1 Use the [DLMURL="http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/business/Business/Building-Professionals/Helpful-Tools/Whole-house-boiler-sizing-wizard"]Boiler Sizing Wizard[/DLMURL] to find out your heating requirement.You will have to deduct 2kw from the answer as it assumes a HW cylinder, not a combi.

2 Measure the total length of all your radiators (count double rads as two rads) in metres.

3 For the HW requirement, measure the flow rate of your cold mains at the kitchen sink with the tap full. Most buckets have litre marks on the inside. You need approx 2.5kW for every litre per minute flow.

Post the three results.

 

[REDSAW]

restricted water flow to boiler then?

 

[keith]

its normally you cant have heating on without hot water, you might be able to switch your programmer from mini to fully pumped if you have 2 valves. if you cant switch it or it doesnt make no difference its the way its been wired in.

 

[ken long]

OK, here are some more shots. Lets put aside the combi boiler replacement notion for now. I'd just like to get this to work. First few pics show the HW cylinder which is located in a cupboard in one of the rooms. This is followed by the boiler set up in the kitchen. Tried to get a complete shot as well as close up of some of the components. When we moved in, the top yellow "lever" was set to off, so I turned it to the on position. This is the only thing I have touched. It worked as we got hot water after that. Pleas ehave a look at the pressure gauge reading. Not sure how to read this if its relevant at all. Thanks again for your assisstance.

 

[REDSAW]

first shut of the yellow valve near the gauge,
not sure of the pressure on the gauge at guess should be around 1 bar,
why is the yellow valve closed next to the cylinder?.

 

[ken long]

As far as I can tell, the one next to the gauge is off. As for the one near the cylinder (not the top one that I had switched on) should it be on???

No, you were right, it was on. I turned it to OFF now.

Not sure what that lower does. There's no label.

 

[REDSAW]

no its actually on, when its in line with the pipe run it is on, if you turn the black plastic knob at the other end of the flexi-pipe it will top up the heating circuit. so it is best to turn of the yellow one too in case of letting by.
not sure of the one next to cylinder yet as cant see where it feeds to.

 

[ken long]

Here's the bottom shot. It then goes under the floorboards.

There's a radiator directly to the left of this shot if that's any help.

 

[REDSAW]

hang-on a minuite,!.
there is no water in your cylinder is there?.
doh!.
why its still there idont know.

 

[ken long]

There isn't? WTF? What makes you say that? I'm sorry, I have no idea.

What do you mean? I'm not following. I hear the thing come on in the morning through the wall (our bedroom is in the next room).

 

[REDSAW]

the emmersion has been removed so therefore there is no hot water in there,
however, i think maybee the pipes where the lower yellow valve is, will get hot when the heaing is on hehnse the noise.
the plumber therefore couldnt be arsed to remove it, so the heating circulates through the cylinder coil. thats why the e/heaters been removed..

 

[ken long]

if you turn the black plastic knob at the other end of the flexi-pipe it will top up the heating circuit. so it is best to turn of the yellow one too in case of letting by.

Hold on... which plastic knob? The one on the left or on the right? Should I turn it? What is "letting by". Apologies for the newbieness.

ken

the emmersion has been removed so therefore there is no hot water in there,
however, i think maybee the pipes where the lower yellow valve is, will get hot when the heaing is on hehnse the noise.
the plumber therefore couldnt be arsed to remove it, so the heating circulates through the cylinder coil. thats why the e/heaters been removed..

OH. FFS! What should I do then? Is there a way to stop those pipes heating up? What a waste of energy!?? On the up side, it means I have a combi boiler right?

Are you in London? Fancy a job?

the emmersion has been removed so therefore there is no hot water in there,
however, i think maybee the pipes where the lower yellow valve is, will get hot when the heaing is on hehnse the noise.
the plumber therefore couldnt be arsed to remove it, so the heating circulates through the cylinder coil. thats why the e/heaters been removed..

It would also explain why the Heating and Hot water appear to be linked??? The hot water should be on demand but at the moment is only coming on when the heating is on?? Or is that wrong?

 

[REDSAW]

it's whats technically known in the trade as a potterton *******ised system, a one of.
dont touch anything.
what has been done there is anyones guess, if i were you i'd get the landlord in to explain and sort it, or call a plumber in your area for a quote to sort it, then pick his brain as he will be able to look more closely. if i was 100 mile nearer i would.
it looks very dodgy to me, unless anyone else on here can add?. i would leave well alone for now.

 

[ken long]

it's whats technically known in the trade as a potterton *******ised system, a one of.
dont touch anything.
what has been done there is anyones guess, if i were you i'd get the landlord in to explain and sort it, or call a plumber in your area for a quote to sort it, then pick his brain as he will be able to look more closely. if i was 100 mile nearer i would.
it looks very dodgy to me, unless anyone else on here can add?. i would leave well alone for now.

OK, but in the meantime, we keep getting lockouts and we are having cold showers. I've put everything back to how it was. I started mesing with it until I saw your reply. I AM THE LANDLORD! LOL! I bought the place in July. Thanks for all your help and keeping you up.

Well, we had hot water this morning so something seems to have worked. For now...

Am I right in assuming that as its a combi boiler, we should be getting hot water "on demand". So when the hot tap is open, the boiler should start automatically?

It still doesn't explain why the timer would have HOT WATER and HEATING "linked" as it were.

I'll be looking to get a plumber in asap.

Thanks again for all the useful advice.