Solid fuel Thermal Cooler

[Nordio]

I want to fit this device to a 40kw solid fuel boiler.[DLMURL="http://kotly.com/popup_add_image.php?imagesID=3914"]Schemat[/DLMURL]

It's a WZS-3 + One-way thermal release valve JBV - for boilers 34-70 kW supplied by Kotly.

It only seems to have one inlet and one outlet and their diagram shows it connected on the primary flow.
What happens when the pump fails? There doesn't seem to be any return path to the primary return other than a rad circuit.

I was thinking of adding another port to this device or adding a T on the primary flow before the circulator and pipe a 28mm by pass back to the primary return with a termobac fitted to prevent the boiler being by passed when the circulator operates.
So when the circulator fails, gravity circulation will take over.
What do you think? I fitted this boiler a while back and its boiled a few times much to the alarm of the owners who don't exactly want their garage turned into a steam room.
Thanks.

 

[ecowarm]

It would cool the top of the boiler and the flow pipe, in the event of an overheat situation. If the pump was running or not.

 

[Nordio]

Only the top? Would that be enough?
I thought re-circulation to the boiler return would be needed?

It doesn't show in the diagram where the primary flow and return go too which could be a thermal store I think. Or "accumulator" as they call them.
And gravity circulation could be accomplished in that scenario.

 

[ecowarm]

If the pump fails and you still have gravity circulation and an accumulator of 1700l + depending on the output of the boiler is the pipework undersized if the boiler boils? Also you only need to cool the top of the boiler, highest temp at the top. Also if a lladomat is fitted it allows for gravity cirulation through the valve.

 

[ecowarm]

Just to add..... a thermal cooler is the LAST option that should take place, gravity circulation should alway be allowed for.

 

[Nordio]

No gravity circulation on this install nor no thermal store fitted either. No space for store and no space for a heat leak rad as it would need to be gigantic and would waste a lot of heat.
It is vented though you'll be glad to hear.
But it will have gravity circulation if I fit this device and do the modifications.

For some strange reason when it gets to 80c (boiler guage) the pump stops circulating and then it boils about right. Steam into the header tank!
Vapour steam bubble on the circulator inlet? But why would it happen at 80c?
The header tank is only 1m above the boiler so not much head height.

 

[ecowarm]

If the pump stops at 80c and boiler running it is only going to take seconds to go over 100c if no provision for gravity circulation! Is the head of the f&e tank within the manufacturers spec? it seems a bit of a bodge job to me, DIY even?

 

[Nordio]

Diy ,bodge??? :59:
Guess you could call it that. lol
Its been working ok for a couple of years though.
The boiler stat is set to 74c and works fine at that setting. I've upped it a few times to 80c and china syndrome ensues.
The ceiling in the garage is low so no possibility of raising the header tank.

 

[Gray0689]

Your playing with danger
As Eco says it must have the scope to gravity if not and pump fails not good
Water expands in to steam and if your vent can't get rid quick enough then well let's just say it won't be good and bye the way you do know your house insurance won't cover you as its not a professional installation hetas

 

[Nordio]

The ventings been tested a few times and can confirm it works fine. Its 22mm.
Gravity to rads or thermal store is not possible so have to look at other options hence the post.
What do the pro's do when faced with this situation? Walk away?
Not me. Day I was beat was the day I wasn't there.
DPS do a plate cooler system so I might consider that also. If I was doing it again I'd choose a boiler with a cooling coil fitted and knock it up as a sealed system.
Think broosley scws and you'll get my drift.

Buying them direct from the continent and by passing uk importers you can buy them cheap enough. I'm not too bothered about the house insurance. Its not my house its fitted in. I did it on the cheap and the guv'nor knows he'll take any raps. That reminds me. No co detector fitted. Though the boiler shares its space with a cat and its still living. lol
Has anyone ever fitted one and can share their experiences?
Thanks.

 

[Pipes Plumbing]

Not being funny but is this a wind up?


If it's not I hope for your sake it doesn't go **** up....

 

[peteheat]

"But it will have gravity circulation if I fit this device and do the modifications"

What type of boiler ? What fuel?

 

[Nordio]

It's a big wood batch boiler. Fan assisted.
Don't want to name it in case the uk importer is floating around the forum.

Why would the primary pump stop flowing water at 80c as shown on the boiler guage when its revolving as normal at the speed three setting?
Its a grundfos.

I'll mebbe take a look this evening and take a pipe temperature reading on the copper pipe just before the pump inlet and see if it tallies with the boiler guage.

 

[Pipes Plumbing]

This thread needs pictures....

And a serious health warning.

 

[peteheat]

Hi,

One of the reasons the UK supplier may be more expensive is because they must be available to answer your questions or find themselves in breach of one or more of the consumer laws that are in place to protect the buyer.

The second they may appear more expensive is Kotly do not sell like for like products, I should know because we sell similar products but we can't buy the lower kotly products from the manufacturer (not that we really want to), besides we sell the higher quality cheaper than kotly (No we don't supply to the UK).

Wood boilers should be connected to a buffer tank sized at approx 50 litres per Kw output of the boiler (depending on the boiler quality), Atmos (and others) do not specify this because they want to push up the cost of a wood boiler but because they make sense and are much safer than connecting a boiler that you have very little control over direct to the central heating system.

I have no idea what boiler you have but suggest that if it has a control panel check if there is a connection for a thermostat control, some boilers are programmed to start the pump at a set temperature and go into alarm mode when the boiler reaches 80c.

I know this appears to be a contradiction in safety terms because the temperature will continue to rise due to residual heat in the boiler or active heat being produced by a partly burned fuel load, the manufacturer expects that you have the safety controls in place and is only concerned with protecting the boiler.

 

[Nordio]

The second they may appear more expensive is Kotly do not sell like for like products

What does this mean? Like for like? Its certainly not cost.
The uk importer sells the boiler to the public at a 200% mark up price from kotlys prices. Do you think thats fair?

besides we sell the higher quality cheaper than kotly

I doubt that very much. What boilers do you sell and I can make a comparison?

 

[peteheat]

Like for Like ?

Your first post was 2 days ago, plenty of time for the retailer to reply to any question you may have, even call to your installation to advise perhaps even assist with commissioning the system.

Kotly ????????????

Products with the same names Eg Atmos DC 32S on the Kotly web site are not available to us from the manufacturer hence like for like.

We sell the Atmos 32S 10% approx cheaper than the Kotly advertised price, of course claiming that is pointless as we do not advertise online, we have that model on display where the customer can see, touch and compare with other products so they really know what they are getting for their money.

We would not sell any batch wood (log burner) without a buffer tank be it a gasifier or through burner, to find out why all a person has to do is call in and ask.

 

[Nordio]

Products with the same names Eg Atmos DC 32S on the Kotly web site are not available to us from the manufacturer hence like for like

Why is that?
What is the difference between the DC 32S and 32S you mention? Are you suggesting the DC 32S is a lower quality model and if so how do you know this?

We sell the Atmos 32S 10% approx cheaper

Kotly quote £1759 for the DC 32S including vat and including the laddomat and BVTS valve.
Can you beat that?
Bearing in mind a laddomat is well north of £250 quid.

We would not sell any batch wood (log burner) without a buffer tank be it a gasifier or through burner

By "through burner" you mean a boiler with a ventilator. (ie fan assisted) I can see why a gasifier has an advantage with a buffer. Albeit a lot of this advanatge in efficiency at the burn stage is lost later through standing losses.
A fan assisted boiler has no need of buffer tanks. They are a waste of space , waste of energy, waste of time and waste of money.

 

[peteheat]

Why is that?
What is the difference between the DC 32S and 32S you mention? Are you suggesting the DC 32S is a lower quality model and if so how do you know this?

Go to any manufacturer order enough of any product and they will brand it XYZ NPE (manufacturers name Nordio's Pink Elephant) exclusive to you.

It's my business to know these things.

Kotly quote £1759 for the DC 32S including vat and including the laddomat and BVTS valve.
Can you beat that?
Bearing in mind a laddomat is well north of £250 quid.

We quote in Euros and our price is €1,870.00 including the laddomat, (if you pass the attitude test maybe a little less) we do not recommend the BVTS because they can not work for most of our rural customers as they are using wells for water and when the power fails the well pump is just like the circulating pump useless without electricity.

That said we do not sell them without a buffer and correctly sized expansion vessel, in the event of power failure the Laddomat opens to allow the boiler gravity circulate through the buffer, expansion vessel does it's job.

By "through burner" you mean a boiler with a ventilator. (ie fan assisted) I can see why a gasifier has an advantage with a buffer. Albeit a lot of this advanatge in efficiency at the burn stage is lost later through standing losses.
A fan assisted boiler has no need of buffer tanks. They are a waste of space , waste of energy, waste of time and waste of money.

Through burner does Not have a fan, old style light the fire at the grate the fire burns up through the fuel.

No point in going further to explain fans, gassifiers etc as you know so much about fans and the many different types and jobs they do I bow to your superior knowledge and thank you for saving me the time of typing a long reply.