system boiler with copper vented cylinder.

[the_d_o_t]

Hi guys,

i normally do combination boilers so bare with me if I'm wrong but...
i have just been to price up a job, its a conventional sytem with conventional boiler and the customer told me they wanted a new system boiler but dont have enough money to replace the old copper cylinder just yet, i said i think you will need to get a unvented cylinder for a system boiler, they told me that they had spoke to worcester and they said they can make use of there indirect vented copper cylinder until they want to upgrade.

can system boilers go on a vented system or do they need a conventional boiler?

 

[the_d_o_t]

i have told them that they need a conventional boiler if they was to keep the existing copper cylinder

 

[SimonG]

It will work fine and dandy on a system boiler. Is the existing hot water pumped?

 

[chris watkins]

i have told them that they need a conventional boiler if they was to keep the existing copper cylinder

I was going to go on about Part L of the Building Regs, you know the Law thing but it would be a bit wasted!!
Yes a system boiler can be connected to a standard indirect copper cylinder. It should be Part L compliant but if they cant afford to renew for a while just make a note of the fact on your invoice.

Why did you think that it had to be an un-vented with a system boiler or a heat only boiler with an indirect copper??

 

[AWheating]

it will be fine. gew for it.

 

[doitmyself]

I was going to go on about Part L of the Building Regs, you know the Law thing but it would be a bit wasted!!
Yes a system boiler can be connected to a standard indirect copper cylinder. It should be Part L compliant

Are you saying that Part L insists that the cylinder is upgraded when you change the boiler?

If so, chapter and verse please.

 

[kris]

Hi D O T if they keep the existing tank then it will work fine. Even if heating pressurised it doesnt mean the hot water has to be, it will simply work via gravity.As long as heating has relevant pressure relief valve and expansion.

 

[chris watkins]

Are you saying that Part L insists that the cylinder is upgraded when you change the boiler?

If so, chapter and verse please.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_services_compliance_guide.pdf
Table 4 Page 19, Yes if Gravity Primary's but its worth a read through the rest of it.

 

[anz]

Are you saying that Part L insists that the cylinder is upgraded when you change the boiler?

If so, chapter and verse please.

Its the controls that have to be ungraded, not the cylinder itself i.e. fully pumped, separate control, cylinder stat, etc.

 

[the_d_o_t]

It will work fine and dandy on a system boiler. Is the existing hot water pumped?

thanks, no it is gravity

 

[the_d_o_t]

I was going to go on about Part L of the Building Regs, you know the Law thing but it would be a bit wasted!!
Yes a system boiler can be connected to a standard indirect copper cylinder. It should be Part L compliant but if they cant afford to renew for a while just make a note of the fact on your invoice.

Why did you think that it had to be an un-vented with a system boiler or a heat only boiler with an indirect copper??

thanks, i thought that because it had a pressure gauge on that it would be a sealed system?

 

[the_d_o_t]

Hi D O T if they keep the existing tank then it will work fine. Even if heating pressurised it doesnt mean the hot water has to be, it will simply work via gravity.As long as heating has relevant pressure relief valve and expansion.

hi kris,thanks for reply but what about the expansion pipe into water tanks, would this need blanking off and now make use of the blow off to make the system sealed?

 

[Irish]

no the open vent from the cylinder has to be left for the expansion of water in the cylider

 

[Axe man]

Hi , just read your post and you can connect to an old cylinder provided it is a indirect type and I would recommend you involve an s plan with your system boiler , don't forget a bypass on the system , it will wok fine .

 

[the_d_o_t]

no the open vent from the cylinder has to be left for the expansion of water in the cylider

but i can do away with the heatings header tank and cap off the expantion pipe for the heating?

 

[Killy Bing]

but i can do away with the heatings header tank and cap off the expantion pipe for the heating?

Do ya only do new build?

if you're pressurising the system then yes you remove the header tank, thats replaced by the expansion vessel
the vent is capped and replaced by the boilers PRV
your cold feed is replaced by the filling loop.

remember sealing a system can lead to leaks showing up, have it in your terms about that.


what exactly is the current system? Fully pumped or does it have gravity for the cylinder coil?

 

[chris watkins]

Its the controls that have to be ungraded, not the cylinder itself i.e. fully pumped, separate control, cylinder stat, etc.

True and it is only down as Good Practice not Minimum Standard however what would be the point of upgrading to fully pumped & adding the controls to an old indirect, with two turns of 1" tube half way up the cylinder ??
The boiler is not going to stay alight for long or remain in condensing mode for long is it?
I would also draw everyones attention to the requirements for insulation set out in table 5 A & B

thanks, i thought that because it had a pressure gauge on that it would be a sealed system?

The heating would normally be converted into a sealed one (remove F&E) & so long as the cylinder coil was rated for any uplift in the pressure (which most should be) then it would be fine on any copper open vented cylinder.

 

[Ray Stafford]

the d_o_t

with all respect (honestly, I'm not having a go, really I'm not) but from your questions, I wonder if you ought to be taking on this job without the support of a more experienced engineer?

Sorry if this comes over as rude - its not my intent. We all have stuff to learn.

 

[Simon F]

The heating would normally be converted into a sealed one (remove F&E) & so long as the cylinder coil was rated for any uplift in the pressure (which most should be) then it would be fine on any copper open vented cylinder.

this was my thought as well, no problem with pressurising the coil, BUT if it is already old/corroded, the new higher pressure could mean a new cylinder any way, be sure to mention this to the customer as a possibility to cover yourself.

but as Ray says, is this not basic stuff? if you only ever do combis then fair enough, best to ask.

 

[chris watkins]

the d_o_t

with all respect (honestly, I'm not having a go, really I'm not) but from your questions, I wonder if you ought to be taking on this job without the support of a more experienced engineer?

Sorry if this comes over as rude - its not my intent. We all have stuff to learn.

I was thinking along the same lines Ray but I was only reading up to post 12.

I read on & now it is starting to get dangerous !!!! So you can take this as being rude if you like d_o_t but for heaven-sake go & get some training or find an experienced person to give you a hand & take the lead on this job before someone gets hurt.

 

[erpkid]

Yes get someone else in and give them a hand. It will be useful experience as I am sure this job will turn up some issues that will help you in the future.

 

[the_d_o_t]

Do ya only do new build?

if you're pressurising the system then yes you remove the header tank, thats replaced by the expansion vessel
the vent is capped and replaced by the boilers PRV
your cold feed is replaced by the filling loop.

remember sealing a system can lead to leaks showing up, have it in your terms about that.


what exactly is the current system? Fully pumped or does it have gravity for the cylinder coil?

yes only do combi installs, thanks for your advice.
it has gravity for the cylinder coil.

 

[the_d_o_t]

i came on here to get advice and i would never do anything without knowing what i am doing is 100% correct so no it is not dangerous

 

[Ermintrude]

the d_o_t

with all respect (honestly, I'm not having a go, really I'm not) but from your questions, I wonder if you ought to be taking on this job without the support of a more experienced engineer?

Sorry if this comes over as rude - its not my intent. We all have stuff to learn.

Agree! Sounds like it could be a bit of a mess. Where are you? Pay a local lad and help him you will learn a lot.

 

[the_d_o_t]

i am re piping the heating system and installing new rads anyway and new boiler is going into a different location so all its all new pipework with new controls.