Would you fit a water softener? and can you see its merit?

[moonlight]

I have been asked by an old customer of mine if they should have a water softener fitted in their new build house. I am not a fan of them but would like an unbiased view, so I could give them the information required. They now live 200 miles away so I wont be fitting anything but still would like to give sound information. Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If the waters hard then yes and I would recommend Harvey company

 

[Vee]

Yes, well worth having if you have hard water. Harvey is quite expensive though.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes, well worth having if you have hard water. Harvey is quite expensive though.

Uk made tho so this sweetens the deal for me

 

[SimonG]

Whereabouts in the country?

 

[Old Account]

As shauni mentioned Harvey are decent.
A big disadvantage of water softener is the health risks for the people on low sodium diets. Another disadvantage is you cannot drink softened water. Also too, if you soften or heating the water it becomes more aggressive and pipe joints are more vulnerable.

Advantage would be a smaller amount of soaps, reducing the scale, a little bit of energy saving due to the fact thats less scale inside the boiler.

 

[Vee]

You still need a drinking water tap for cooking etc that Is softened, which is why most water softener so are fitted adjacent the main incoming isolation. This recommendation is included in most softener manuals. Provided heating water is treated with inhibitor this should neutralise any softened water or make sure to only fill heating with hard water, some manufacturers of boilers insist on unsoftened water. Anyone who gets involved in cleaning their own bathrooms knows how much difference it makes to the cleaning effort and anyone who does the dishes and the washing in a household will be able to confirm the amount of powder, detergents and heating elements etc you will save. Well worth it British made or not.

 

[Old Account]

You cannot fit a softener on the kitchen tap as this will be your cooking and drinking water. The rest of the house can be softened but not the kitchen tap.

 

[Vee]

That's what I meant. The kitchen tap needs to be hard water. The auto correct devil got in it.

 

[steadyon]

Well worth having. I've had one for 30 years (same one, "Permutit" (no longer made)). Needs a take off from the incoming cold main to feed the kitchen tap and the boiler filling loop. Everything else should come off the softened supply.

However, a few points worth noting:

1. Some (most?) combi boiler manufacturers won't guarantee the boiler if the domestic hot water circuit is fed with softened water.
2. There is a need to refill the container with salt from time to time. Ours uses about 25Kg every 3 to 4 weeks (London, just two of us). The salt is:

2a. Getting more expensive.
2b. Heavy. I'm getting too old to lift 25Kg bags, so will soon have to start on 10Kg bags which are more expensive again.
2c. Storing the salt takes up quite a lot of space. We buy 10 x 25Kg bags at a time, and if you buy in smaller quantities, again the price goes up.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Never fitted a softener. Sceptical as to how much it actually does. But obviously just my opinion.

 

[Chuck]

I am not a fan of them but would like an unbiased view

I'm not a fan either. I'd base the decision on Part L and the measured level of hardness at the site.

Part L says "Where the mains total water hardness exceeds 200 parts per million, provision should be made to treat the feed water to water heaters and the hot water circuit of combination boilers to reduce the rate of accumulation of limescale."

 

[Harvest Fields]

I'm not a fan either. I'd base the decision on Part L and the measured level of hardness at the site.

Part L says "Where the mains total water hardness exceeds 200 parts per million, provision should be made to treat the feed water to water heaters and the hot water circuit of combination boilers to reduce the rate of accumulation of limescale."

That is why I always fit an inline scale reducer to the pipework before the boiler I am fitting.

 

[king of pipes]

I would say yes if it in a hard water area especially in a new build as it will be easy to plan the plumbing and drainage it keeps the bathroom taps , shower and glass limescale free , it protects the boiler if its a combi, and the pipework so just makes a home easier to keep clean and shiney Tapworks AD11 is what i use ,the block salt softners are good but more than twice the price of a Tapworks softner . cheers kop

 

[MOSSEP]

I fitted one in my house, and any saving made on soaps, washing powder etc.. has been offset by the amount of cups, glasses and plates I have smashed because the soap doesn't rinse off very well! Everything slips out of my hands now.

Not too sure on the facts regarding sodium levels in the water, I don't think in reality it is very high, not compared to what you would normally eat during the day anyway. You certainly cannot taste it at all.

I have a Tapworks one, bit basic considering the cost, wouldn't hurt for it to have something like an alarm that warns you when the salt level its low. Mine isn't installed somewhere that easy to check so I only notice its run out when the washing up liquid doesn't make loads of suds anymore. I think my first 25kg bag lasted about 3 months.

 

[DerekJB]

I have been asked by an old customer of mine if they should have a water softener fitted in their new build house. I am not a fan of them but would like an unbiased view, so I could give them the information required. They now live 200 miles away so I wont be fitting anything but still would like to give sound information. Thanks

Hi You Have a couple of options to recommend, first things first, you need to find out how hard the water is, as not all areas have hard water, as previous replies over 200pm
its recommended to treat the water, you can use a water softener but must supply the kitchen and the heating loop with untreated water, you can run a combi hot water circuit with water from a water softener but will loose a little bit of pressure. you can fit scale reducer if its just s limescale issue they want to overcome, or you could fit a monarch scale out (check Monarch's website) which they call a non salt water softener the xp model requires the resin to be changed every 3 years and the secondary particle filter every year. the cost is cheaper than a water softener and no salt to buy.
hope this helps.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hi You Have a couple of options to recommend, first things first, you need to find out how hard the water is, as not all areas have hard water, as previous replies over 200pm
its recommended to treat the water, you can use a water softener but must supply the kitchen and the heating loop with untreated water, you can run a combi hot water circuit with water from a water softener but will loose a little bit of pressure. you can fit scale reducer if its just s limescale issue they want to overcome, or you could fit a monarch scale out (check Monarch's website) which they call a non salt water softener the xp model requires the resin to be changed every 3 years and the secondary particle filter every year. the cost is cheaper than a water softener and no salt to buy.
hope this helps.

Not totally true Viessmann boilers can run on softened water in both circuits and tbh any boiler with both heat exchanger stainless steel you will be fine

With no extras

 

[Eyespy999]

I have fitted Harveys and have one myself, the water isn't particularly hard where I live however the benefits are noticeable, and if you have skin complains it can provide some comfort. I wouldnt change back and be without one.

 

[Frelon]

I have had Water Softeners for more than 40 years and would not be without one. I originally had a Permutit because they were the only manufacturer then. When parts were not available I bought an early Kinetico but silly me left it in the flat when we sold it! Bought another Kinetico and had that for 20 years with no problems, both in France and UK. My daughter now has that as I have acquired a Harvey's Softener.
A water softener should be considered a long term investment, do not buy cheap or you will buy twice.
The majority of plumbers are a little wary of water softeners because of the defensive stance of boiler manufacturers who say you should not put artificially softened water through their boilers because it may damage the heat exchanger if they are made of aluminium. I understand that not one has provided proof to substantiate this claim. Some boiler manufacturers using stainless heat exchangers actually recommend the use of a water softener.
The amount of sodium found in softened water is minuscule and will not be harmful to health.
Water conditioners do not work but seem to be fitted to give house builders peace of mind that they are doing something to protect the (cheap) boilers they install.
My Ideal boiler manual says the guarantee is invalid if softened water is used, but then goes on to say that any hard water corrosion that causes a fault in the boiler will not be covered either. Go figure!
To appease these boiler manufacturers either fit a hard water feed to the boiler or turn the softener by-pass to off when filling the central heating circuit.
The best (in my opinion) in the U.K. Are Kinetico and Harvey's, both use block salt which is easy to handle, the latest models have transparent lids so that you are able to see how much salt is left before needing to be refilled. My usage is two blocks per month = £4:00