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No vent pipe from cylinder? Help would be appreciated.

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Discuss No vent pipe from cylinder? Help would be appreciated. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at Plumbers Forums

J

Joseph freegard

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14
Hello,

I thought I’d try fitting a shower pump today. Every thing works, other than the pump just fires water up the vent pipe and into the tank in the attic.

i don’t know where this vent pipe has come from as there isn’t one coming off the top of the cylinder.
17BAAC83-EF88-4439-830D-39E9F7EA249D.jpeg
F27063DE-F9FB-4E81-89FA-004930110CDA.jpeg
 
Please put it back how you found it as the vent is the cylinders safety feature and atm you’ve basically capped it off

Have a look at an s flange
 
ShaunCorbs said:
Please put it back how you found it as the vent is the cylinders safety feature and atm you’ve basically capped it off

Have a look at an s flange
Click to expand...

I see that now.

what a pain. Thanks for the advise

will an S flange work with that set up? Usually there’s a vent pipe and the pipe to the services, I only seem to have one. Which is why I thought the system must be vented some other way.
Would I be right in saying the pipe to all the services must T off that vent pipe somewhere else (floorboards above the cylinder probably). i need to put the pump on to that pipe somewhere, preferably below the hot water cylinder.
 
Last edited:
1570986484200.jpeg


Right connection to pump then going to your outlets that want to be pumped eg shower etc

Top connection vent and any outlets that you don’t want pumped
 
Capping off the vent pipe risks implosion of the tank. Reconnect the vent pipe and do not run the pump.
If you want a simple installation go for a Shower Power Booster. There is a link to the site on this forum.

The Shower Power Booster | Get the Perfect Shower | Inline Pump

Easy way to boost any shower or tap. Simple 3-step DIY installation & no electrician needed. As seen on BBC Dragon’s Den. Uses 95% less energy. Learn more
showerpowerbooster.co.uk showerpowerbooster.co.uk
 
In some circumstances, the cylinder without a vent could even explode. For example in overheating conditions, or if the water is being heated in normal conditions and if the cold feed to the cylinder is isolated.

If you're committed to a conventional pump rather than the Shower Power Booster suggested, look at page 40 on Mira's Guide to Pumped Showers (q.v.) and note the vent arrangement used. Or you can use a flange as suggested. The vent must always rise continually from the top of the cylinder and there must not be any form of isolation valve on the open safety vent.

Please check what you do with us before you switch anything on (especially the water heating). These photos are a bit scary to be frank.
 
ShaunCorbs said:
View attachment 40867

Right connection to pump then going to your outlets that want to be pumped eg shower etc

Top connection vent and any outlets that you don’t want pumped
Click to expand...

I can’t really do that set up without re-plumbing my whole house as all the outlets must t off the vent pipe somewhere else. There is not pipe to out let’s in and around the hot water cylinder, just the vent pipe.
[automerge]1570990304[/automerge]
Alan Wright said:
Capping off the vent pipe risks implosion of the tank. Reconnect the vent pipe and do not run the pump.
If you want a simple installation go for a Shower Power Booster. There is a link to the site on this forum.

The Shower Power Booster | Get the Perfect Shower | Inline Pump

Easy way to boost any shower or tap. Simple 3-step DIY installation & no electrician needed. As seen on BBC Dragon’s Den. Uses 95% less energy. Learn more
showerpowerbooster.co.uk showerpowerbooster.co.uk
Click to expand...
Yup, I know. I didn’t realise that the pipe I was using was a vent pipe. Which i now know sounds ridiculous.
 
Can’t use a pump then sorry to say
 
Ric2013 said:
In some circumstances, the cylinder without a vent could even explode. For example in overheating conditions, or if the water is being heated in normal conditions and if the cold feed to the cylinder is isolated.

If you're committed to a conventional pump rather than the Shower Power Booster suggested, look at page 40 on Mira's Guide to Pumped Showers (q.v.) and note the vent arrangement used. Or you can use a flange as suggested. The vent must always rise continually from the top of the cylinder and there must not be any form of isolation valve on the open safety vent.

Please check what you do with us before you switch anything on (especially the water heating). These photos are a bit scary to be frank.
Click to expand...

I wanted to use a flange, but there’s only the one pipe coming out of the cylinder, so a flange would involve a lot of re piping, taking floors up etc.
[automerge]1570990526[/automerge]
ShaunCorbs said:
Can’t use a pump then sorry to say
Click to expand...
I’ve found a pipe running behind my kitchen units to the shower/bath. I think I could put the pump on that pipe?
 
Shower Power Boosters are designed to fit anywhere on a system. Cut out 115mm of pipe, Slip in a pump, pug the transformer into a standard 3 pin plug. Extend the power suppy with a low voltage extension lead if needed. No major pipe modifications - no need for a Surrey Flange. 10 minutes work and job done. If you fit a normal pump on a pipe some distance from the cylinder the high head loss could cause cavitaton, the big pump burns out, and you invalidate the warranty. SPB can never cavitate or burn out. They are designed to sort out difficult jobs like yours.
 
Alan Wright said:
Shower Power Boosters are designed to fit anywhere on a system. Cut out 115mm of pipe, Slip in a pump, pug the transformer into a standard 3 pin plug. Extend the power suppy with a low voltage extension lead if needed. No major pipe modifications - no need for a Surrey Flange. 10 minutes work and job done. If you fit a normal pump on a pipe some distance from the cylinder the high head loss could cause cavitaton, the big pump burns out, and you invalidate the warranty. SPB can never cavitate or burn out. They are designed to sort out difficult jobs like yours.
Click to expand...
The manual does say it needs to be within 5m of pipe work to the cylinder. I’d have to measure, but I’d say I’d be slightly over.

Could you possibly send me a link to the SPB you’re talking about? Ive googled it, but all sorts comes up.
I do appreciate all the help and advise. Thank you. Probably should have come here first.
 
Joseph freegard said:
The manual does say it needs to be within 5m of pipe work to the cylinder. I’d have to measure, but I’d say I’d be slightly over.

Could you possibly send me a link to the SPB you’re talking about? Ive googled it, but all sorts comes up.
I do appreciate all the help and advise. Thank you. Probably should have come here first.
Click to expand...
There is no limit to how far a SPB can be from the cylinder. A link to the ShowerPowerBooster web site is in this thread which I sent an hour ago so you can click on that link or you can click on the blue banner on this site. Contact me through the web site and I can advise you further. - Alan Wright
 
Joseph freegard said:
I wanted to use a flange, but there’s only the one pipe coming out of the cylinder, so a flange would involve a lot of re piping, taking floors up etc.
[automerge]1570990526[/automerge]

I’ve found a pipe running behind my kitchen units to the shower/bath. I think I could put the pump on that pipe?
Click to expand...
There's only the one pipe coming out of the cylinder? Presumably, then, at some point (probably above the ceiling) you'll find a tee off to your taps, showers etc. Logically the water must have been getting to your outlets somehow and this would be the pipe you'd need to be pumping into. I'd prefer to see a pumped pipe serving just the shower, but depends on the circumstances how useful this would be.

You can believe Alan Wright on the requirements of the Shower Power Booster seeing as he's the inventor of it.

From the assumptions I have to make, not having seen your house, I'd be inclined to say don't put your pump in the kitchen. Alan Wright has suggested his product may provide an alternative that may be more acceptable to you than extra pipework, something you seem to be dead set against.

If plumbing were easy, I'd be out of a job :)
 
Ric2013 said:
There's only the one pipe coming out of the cylinder? Presumably, then, at some point (probably above the ceiling) you'll find a tee off to your taps, showers etc. Logically the water must have been getting to your outlets somehow and this would be the pipe you'd need to be pumping into. I'd prefer to see a pumped pipe serving just the shower, but depends on the circumstances how useful this would be.

You can believe Alan Wright on the requirements of the Shower Power Booster seeing as he's the inventor of it.

From the assumptions I have to make, not having seen your house, I'd be inclined to say don't put your pump in the kitchen. Alan Wright has suggested his product may provide an alternative that may be more acceptable to you than extra pipework, something you seem to be dead set against.

If plumbing were easy, I'd be out of a job :)
Click to expand...

That’s the assumption I’m making (after a day of learning about plumbing 😂). I think it goes up, tees off through the floor boards then back down to the kitchen and then then to the bath/shower.

so I have 3 options as I see it:

1.put the pump I have in kitchen, which would put it out side the manufactures recommended distance from
water cylinder and by the sounds of it, break the pump.

2. Find where it tees off, remove it from the vent pipe and replumb that back down to the cylinder into an Essex flange, creating the ideal place for the pump I have.

3. Fit one of these SPB things that Alan Wright speaks of.

I’ll have to think on it. option 2 is what I would do in an ideal world. But it’s time and money. Maybe I’ll try option 3 and if I don’t love the results I can look at option 2 again.

at least I’ve learnt a thing or two about my houses plumbing if nothing else.
 
I've never fitted a Shower Power Booster myself, not because I think there's anything wrong with them, but simply the occasion has never arisen, so please do let us know how you get on with it if you go down that route. Let us know how you get on anyhow - the curiosity is probably what makes plumbers on this forum think it's worth their while.
 
Ric2013 said:
I've never fitted a Shower Power Booster myself, not because I think there's anything wrong with them, but simply the occasion has never arisen, so please do let us know how you get on with it if you go down that route. Let us know how you get on anyhow - the curiosity is probably what makes plumbers on this forum think it's worth their while.
Click to expand...
I will certainly let you know. Need to recover from my wasted Sunday/money first of all 😂.
 
Joseph freegard said:
That’s the assumption I’m making (after a day of learning about plumbing 😂). I think it goes up, tees off through the floor boards then back down to the kitchen and then then to the bath/shower.

so I have 3 options as I see it:

1.put the pump I have in kitchen, which would put it out side the manufactures recommended distance from
water cylinder and by the sounds of it, break the pump.

2. Find where it tees off, remove it from the vent pipe and replumb that back down to the cylinder into an Essex flange, creating the ideal place for the pump I have.

3. Fit one of these SPB things that Alan Wright speaks of.

I’ll have to think on it. option 2 is what I would do in an ideal world. But it’s time and money. Maybe I’ll try option 3 and if I don’t love the results I can look at option 2 again.

at least I’ve learnt a thing or two about my houses plumbing if nothing else.
Click to expand...
You appear to have a downstairs shower which means that it should have at least 5 metres of pressure at the shower head already so you should already have enough pressure for a good shower without boosting. A Shower Power Booster will increase the pressure to an upstairs shower by x3 to x4 and the flow by x2. In circumstances such as yours where you already have good pressure a single boost SB2B will only give a 25% increase in flow and you should consider double boosting with a SP21S on the hot as a minimum.
Your problem appears not to be pressure but that your shower and/or shower mixer are at fault in not using what pressure you have already got to give you a good shower. There are advice pages on my web site which advise you on what you need to be looking for if you need a new shower mixer, shower head, or shower hose.
If you contact me through the web site I will send you the advice links so you can make an informed decision but just fitting my pump or indeed any pump to increase pressure when pressure was not the problem in the first place is not going to make you happy.
 
Cut a tee into horizontal pipe out of cylinder. Middle outlet pointing down. Take this connection to pump inlet.
Connect the 22mm back up you've cut out.
Lift floor above and cut and cap the not water feed where is is teed off of vent. This re instates vent.
Cut back the hot water feed and take a new pipe down to pump outlet.
 
SimonG said:
Cut a tee into horizontal pipe out of cylinder. Middle outlet pointing down. Take this connection to pump inlet.
Connect the 22mm back up you've cut out.
Lift floor above and cut and cap the not water feed where is is teed off of vent. This re instates vent.
Cut back the hot water feed and take a new pipe down to pump outlet.
Click to expand...
I’m glad you said this, I’ve been thinking about it today and I think this is what I’m going to do. Bit like this...excuse the poor diagram.
 

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Joseph freegard said:
Hello,

I thought I’d try fitting a shower pump today. Every thing works, other than the pump just fires water up the vent pipe and into the tank in the attic.

i don’t know where this vent pipe has come from as there isn’t one coming off the top of the cylinder.View attachment 40861View attachment 40862
Click to expand...
Hello, the vent pipe is for expansion and stops the expansion caused by excessive heat to hot water supply from damaging the pipe work or boiler. I fitted power pump to my system with the same type of expansion and the only time water is pushed out of the expansion pipe is when the pump is activated while all hot feeds after pump are shut off otherwise it works perfectly.
 

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