New combi choice - manufacturer with the 'best' controls?

Hi all. Asking for a friend who is getting a new combi.

They'd short-listed the WB Greenstar 4000 and Vaillant ecoTec Plus 832, and asked for my thoughts. I didn't have any, other than to ask what controls they were planning to use with them, and that's when I opened a can of worms. The required info for this aspect of a new install surprised me, and I'm still left floundering, even tho' I've spent weeks trying to gather useful info. This is what I have so far:

1) There are a number of different communication protocols used by manufacturers (lawdie, WHY?!), and you'll need to use the correct one to get the very best out of the boiler - ie to fully modulate its output to suit demand. Anything else is a compromise, and silly in these days of best efficiency.

2) Vaillant uses eBUS, and has their own senso-COMFORT, HOME, and ROOM controls, but they no longer do Smart TRVs, which my friend requires. Why has Vaillant stopped doing Smart TRVs?! Surely the ultimate in control?

3) W-B (EMS) has their 'Easy' controls, which looks good, has Smart TRVs, isn't stupidly expensive - but is seemingly plagued with problems, and a sod to sort out if so.

Has anyone had any experience of these? Or, have you installed either boiler using 3rd-party controls to good effect? Or, can you recommend a completely different boiler - eg Veissman or Intergas or whatevs - and a suitable set of controls?

To recap; they are looking for the best efficiency possible, which surely means the controls must use the same protocol as the boiler? And, it must be 'Smart', with easy App control, TRVs, and a nice usable interface.

Thoughts, please

Thanks.

(And a different Q - why aren't manufacturers obliged to stick with a single protocol?!)

What system is it going onto eg rads ufh etc

At a min I would weather comp but be warned are they used to hot rads when they turn the heating on as let’s say October time they would be lukewarm due to warmer temps etc

Hi Shaun.

Yes, conventional rads.

That's the issue - finding a boiler that will come with a set of controls to get the best out of it; fully modulating, weather comp, Smart App control, Smart TRVs. At the moment, they're struggling to find a boiler make that comes with dedicated controls that operate reliably. So that leaves adding a 3rd-party control to a boiler, say Wiser to a Veissman (are they both Opentherm?)

Which make to go for?!

Honest opinion bin the smart valves / trvs and just use the trvs as over temp room control

Wc and timer that’s it you can go dumb eg lifestyle 111 or still dumb but internet controlled eg nest let the wc sort the temp out might take a bit of tweaking eg adjusting the wc curve but once set should be fine providing no one messes with it

ShaunCorbs said:

Honest opinion bin the smart valves / trvs and just use the trvs as over temp room control

Wc and timer that’s it you can go dumb eg lifestyle 111 or still dumb but internet controlled eg nest let the wc sort the temp out might take a bit of tweaking eg adjusting the wc curve but once set should be fine providing no one messes with it

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Ha-ha! I have to say, I think that Smart TRVs are great

Ok, I only have one - in the main bedroom - as t'kids have flown t'nest, but it means I don't need to run up and down t'stairs morn and eve turning the rad manually on and off. And I certainly have no intention of leaving the bedroom rad running all day and eve when it isn't needed - what a waste of energy. I have it coming on a good half-hour before bed, and ditto before wake up. It's off at all other times, and all automatic, and all overrideable from the App. Fab.

Anyhoo, it's what my friend wants!

It strikes me as tho' having Smart TRVs on almost all the rads is the very best zoning type of control - optimum?

DevsAd said:

It strikes me as tho' having Smart TRVs on almost all the rads is the very best zoning type of control - optimum?

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Thats what the adverts imply, but a problem with this sort of arrangement is that modern domestic boilers have a relatively high minimum output power so lots of 'smart' TRVs operating independently tend to cause cycling so, unless you have a large buffer store and/or a smart central controller, the boiler responds by locking itself out for the duration of its 'anti-cycling delay'.

Chuck said:

Thats what the adverts imply, but a problem with this sort of arrangement is that modern domestic boilers have a relatively high minimum output power so lots of 'smart' TRVs operating independently tend to cause cycling so, unless you have a large buffer store and/or a smart central controller, the boiler responds by locking itself out for the duration of its 'anti-cycling delay'.

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I see what you say, but that would be true of any system with TRVs, Smart or not.

I just mean that individual Smart TRVs, on at least the rads that are used on a daily basis - should provide the ultimate control, and therefore saving. Bedrooms will be the most obvious application - have these set to provide heat a half-hour or so before bedtime, and again before wake-up - off at all other times. Immediate savings there, without having to run up and down the stairs turning the manual valves on and off. If the nursery bedroom needs a min overnight temp as well, sorted. No waste.

Study not used until the evenings? Time it. Sitting room? Ditto.

I have Tado and it modulates my Vaillant ecoTEC pro 28 perfectly. Tado can work with the Vaillant eBUS. That would be my recommendation. Have a look at the installer manuals to check how the Tado thermostat needs to be set up. My Vaillant heating engineer had no idea that anything apart from Vaillant's own products could work with their BUS.

scgf01 said:

I have Tado and it modulates my Vaillant ecoTEC pro 28 perfectly. Tado can work with the Vaillant eBUS. That would be my recommendation. Have a look at the installer manuals to check how the Tado thermostat needs to be set up. My Vaillant heating engineer had no idea that anything apart from Vaillant's own products could work with their BUS.

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I installed a Vaillant for my friend the lad I worked with was Vaillant approved he told my friend that tado wouldn’t work with it, but it does he is a electrical design engineer and installed it all works perfectly with a tado try on each rad apart from towel rad.

Thanks SCG & Gasmk1 - that sounds ideal.

I'll pass that on - cheers.