2 Week Plumbing Courses

[Hawkofeagles]

As I mentioned in my introduction.....I have been reading the threads on this forums for a while now and thought I'd have my say with regard to the 2 Week Plumbing Courses.

I currently work in the print environment and have been a keen DIY'er for family and friends for years with no complaints doing various plumbing and tiling jobs. I recently completed a 2 Week Plumbing Course in Dorset to give me more confidence in doing bathroom installations etc.....

Now I know it takes years for you to become a fully fledged Plumber but I learn't so much on the course and alot of the things I learn't on the Course can be done by anyone with a bit of common sense. You don't need a degree to do a bathroom installation, move a radiator or to change a tap and so on. I do know that if I am doing something for a client, I will do it to the best of my ability. I know what I can do and am not interested in pulling the wool over my customers eyes.

It's like DAVE said!!

There is also many timeserved cowboys in all trades not just wanna be tradesmen....

So we can't tar them all with the same brush can we......

As I'm currently employed it isn't possible for me to do a proper college course or apprenticeship and there is a three year waiting list for college courses in my area.

If I'm going to be called a career change cowboy then so be it but you can't knock someone for trying to improve their knowledge in something they love doing.

Hawkofeagles

 

[Dave]

As long as you stick to regulations and break no laws.....then no probs.......Just cause you want to fit bathrooms doesn't say you want to be called a plumber dose it...

It's like all trades certain aspects are easy-ish to do, but once you move into other area's of a trade then my advice is to leave it to the guys that are well trained in those area's....

i'e. ... in pumbing then this is heating systems/gas work, etc etc.......not just a bathroom install....and as my experiance tells me, not all plumbers can fit top end bathrooms....you have to be specialised in that end of the market also...as bathrooms can be very high spec gear and if you haven't fitted them it's not as simple as connecting pipes..etc etc...

 

[moony]

end of day theres fitting a bath, basin, and wc and theres fitting a bathroom i.e in wall showers, shower srceens, diggin the floor to level access, soil stacks (knowing when to t into a stack or is it a vent pipe) units with worktops (butt and scribe joins) loads of stuff whirl pool baths steam rooms.

depends what your talking about as in bathrooms really, my old man could prob blag his way through a bath wc and basin and hes a steel erector - but wouldnt know where to start with a proper bathroom installation.

And as for moving a rad - you know how to drain a combi fill it back up and also know how to confidently bung a f&e tank and cut into pips etc. I dunno if i was a office guy and went on a 2 week course i dunno whether id have the confidence to do all that.

 

[david williams]

we have allowed plumbing to become a non trade

 

[CIPHE]

But people don't want to become Registered Plumbers. If people are capable and get recognised the customer can choose between a properly qualified professional with high levels of skill and commitment to the industry or someone who makes their living doing plumbing but does not have the skill and experience to get registered. If they are informed about who they are choosing to do the work they can then understand the risks they face if it all goes wrong.

The problem tends to be that we want someone to blame by having a system imposed upon us rather than taking control of the situation ourselves and having a system which we the industry have control over. If we can't unite and make a stand for recognition of our professionalism why should we expect Government to come along and impose some bureaucratic heavy weight scheme upon us?

We should stand up for what we believe in and show the difference between the professional career plumber and the enthusiastic amateur who does plumbing.

We could then let the consumer choose; they do if they take their car to be serviced at the main agent or the arches garage! The problem at the moment is they don’t know how to make that choice and who is or is not professionally capable.

 

[moony]

But people don't want to become Registered Plumbers. If people are capable and get recognised the customer can choose between a properly qualified professional with high levels of skill and commitment to the industry or someone who makes their living doing plumbing but does not have the skill and experience to get registered. If they are informed about who they are choosing to do the work they can then understand the risks they face if it all goes wrong.

The problem tends to be that we want someone to blame by having a system imposed upon us rather than taking control of the situation ourselves and having a system which we the industry have control over. If we can't unite and make a stand for recognition of our professionalism why should we expect Government to come along and impose some bureaucratic heavy weight scheme upon us?

We should stand up for what we believe in and show the difference between the professional career plumber and the enthusiastic amateur who does plumbing.

We could then let the consumer choose; they do if they take their car to be serviced at the main agent or the arches garage! The problem at the moment is they don’t know how to make that choice and who is or is not professionally capable.

excellent opinion mate, so whose gonna pull there finger out and do it ? im currently half way through an apprenticeship in heating and vent . done level 2 starting level 3. I cant for the life of me understand how people with a 20 week course can go and do what im aiming to do at the end of the four years, ive learnt a hell of a lot more through my working experience than i have sat in the college one day a week even thought that has helped considerably too. So cant understand how a 2 week course can even begin to give someone the knowledge needed to carry out even simple bathrooms or heating jobs...

anyway back to your point - its a great idea - what would be the restrictions on becomming a member of the recognised body your suggesting ?

 

[REDSAW]

i think that this site has more than enough members to lobby parliment into regulating the plumbing industry,##
if anyone has the knowledge of setting it up - make your mark?

 

[Plouasne]

CIPHE, if you are who I think you are, I think that in your heart of hearts, you will agree that it doesn't work quite like this, the trade needs to be regulated whether by government (Licensing, has in some parts of the Commonwealth and the US) or preferable by a trade body like the CIPHE

Its only taken the Institute 120 years to become a Chartered body, and in the mean time there has been, corgi, now gas safe, part P, unvented, uncle Tom Coble and all, all stepped in and taken over what should have been the Institutes place, where as you have acted as a talking shop for plumbers, and producing very good information in the way of publications, but you did not take the bull by the horns, when the opportunity was there in the first place to insist on licensing for gas (Ronan Point) was first mooted, was your field of expertise

The same with unvented hot water cylinders, you let it get wrapped up in mystery, and let another company take over, for gods sake there is nothing mysterious about a direct feed mains hot water cylinder, the basic one's are just a steel shell with an inlet and an outlet, with a combined stop valve/over pressure valve/safety valve, on the inlet (French type), and any one can fit these, the American ones do have a separate safety valve, the UK unvented cylinder copper or steel, has god know how many bells and whistles on it

Its exactly the same for the incoming cold water main, just a double acting non-return valve in the meter pit does the job just as well as a special hose union bib tap incorporating a non return valve that the UK insists on

Yet you go along with all the extras, instead of saying hold on lets see what the rest of the world especially Europe does, the UK and Ireland missed a large market by insisting on being special and just calling imperial pipe sizes metric, instead of going the whole hog and adapting the European pipe sizes

Domestic central heating where I am is all closed circuit, and that includes solid fuel boilers, what is the standard for the UK, open vented, at least 50 years out of date

I am afraid that there is no hope for the UK plumbing to advance, unless drastic action is taken, both by central government and the Institute and other bodies, I would recommend for a start a minimum of 6 months training ( for a fast track entry ) and a graded system of licensing, stricter enforcing of the water/gas etc regulations, a 1% or 2% fee levied on all boiler manufacturers to help pay for the training of installers and inspection of all boilers, whatever the fuel

 

[John Flower]

I think that is very unfair especially when it comes to european regs verses the uk regs. Give me a waste water preventer (syphon) over a flush valve and a BS 1010 tap any day of the week Yes the IOP has missed the boat with the regulation of our industry but i think our Water Byelaws when they were byelaws are the best in the world. Our systems of plumbing have served us well for over 150 years. At least you can drink our tap water.

 

[Plouasne]

I think that is very unfair especially when it comes to european regs verses the uk regs. Give me a waste water preventer (syphon) over a flush valve and a BS 1010 tap any day of the week Yes the IOP has missed the boat with the regulation of our industry but i think our Water Byelaws when they were byelaws are the best in the world. Our systems of plumbing have served us well for over 150 years. At least you can drink our tap water.

That's the trouble the UK did not move on when it had the chance, both directly after the war, and when it joined Europe, but sat back and said our ways are best without looking at what other countries were doing

Flush valve v syphon both have good and bad points, so I would call that a draw

Regulations both water and sanitary, were good before they were diluted by "university kids" who hadent a clue, [one tried to tell me that he could not pass my work because the anti syphon pipe from the wash hand basin was "only 11/4"", and had to go and check in his book, when I said that I could have used 1", give me an old semi-retired plumber any day for the sanitary inspector, over a whiz kid building inspector, and when it comes to water inspections, in my old area Liskeard Cornwall, they were a farce, a couple of inspectors "jacked it in" because they were continually getting hauled over the coals, by head office for victimising the contractor, by condemning substandard work, the mains layer I talked to once said sod the regulations now, if there's a pipe in the ground, even if its only 6" down, I will connect it I looked at what the contractor (who got the contract to fit water meters inside properties) fitted, non of it was to the bylaws, straight brass F I center compression "Tee" instead of a DZR or gunmetal fitting, a type 2 brass drain off cock without stuffing gland (accountants, cost over regulations takes all), and to cap it all some idiot when they moved offices, ditched all their record drawings, and had to come and ask me where their mains were in the village, including a 12" trunk main with meter, and where the spurs were off the trunk main to the other village, so I would say that's a definite looser as well

When I was last in that part of UK the water was so heavily chlorinated it was undrinkable, and the company could not give me an analysis of the water, where as in France I can either turn up the latest analysis on the internet or go to the Mairie and see it up on the notice board with a full easy to read analysis of how the sample was taken where it was taken, and how it stands up to both WHO and EU requirements, and having drunk the water for the last 20 years without harm, I would say that this is a winner for the French

Whilst I don't agree with all the French methods, on the whole the plumbing, gas fitting, heating, is better than the UK's, but they can be a bit slap dash when it comes to sanitary drainage, so again I would say that the French is slightly ahead of the UK for this one

It would help if the magistrates or the courts inflicted a proper sentence on a person who was found to be in breach of the regulations instead of a slap on the wrist, a job I went to was so bad I called in the SWWA inspector who decide to take action against the builder/plumber?, in the magistrates court he pleaded that the fittings he used were sold to him by Grahams, and that he did not know, that he should have used either DZR or Gunmetal compression fittings, (there was information in the form of hanging placards saying that for potable water all fittings should be corrosion resistant in the trade counter of Grahams), and that he did not know that he could not take a bidets supply off the other services, all he got in the way of punishment was a 12 month suspended sentence, not even a penny fine, the inspector said to me after the hearing, why do we bother

Also if the UK had wholeheartedly joined Europe, and adapted to the European pipe sizes, there could have been an open market for both sides, as it is its the UK and Ireland out on its own, the same goes for electrics in part as well, ring mains what's them, its all radial same as the fuses and mcb's solid unswitched neutral in the UK, both live and phase are switched in France when a fuse is drawn or an mcb is tripped

 

[HTB]

I find the most interesting comment above to be the one made by Dave Wiliams.

"We have allowed plumbing to become a non trade".

I'm very proud to be a C&G qualified plumber. And I consider it to be my current "trade" which I have practised successfully for the last 5 years.

I'm not a Gas Fitter yet, (doing the courses now but having difficulty with portfolio), but I have bolstered my initial C&G with BPEC unvented, Water regs and registered/assessed for Corgi Part G.

Also done Honeywell controls course and Power Flushing course, at own expense, as part of personal career development.

All this from someone who started out as a fast tracker!!

If we don't have respect for our own trade, how can we expect others to do so.

 

[david williams]

there is nothing wrong with any form of training as long as we realise the limitaions of the training received.you can not train a plumber in 2/12/25/weeks.but if you look at training comps adds 100% pass rate?? this must mean we have lowered the standerd to lowest posible denominater,or we pass you no matter how bad you are.as to custermers most allways go for lowest quote ,then moan when the have a bad experience.

 

[l00ki]

As part of my apprenticeship i had to spend 2 weeks at college preparing for unvented & water regs. This also included installing an Unvented system, i spoke to somone who 'fast tracked' and they done it in a day and suprise suprise everyone passed.. these courses teach the bare minimum and make sure everyone passes to boost their reputation and inevitably make more money off people seeking the easy option.

 

[Jamie Banks]

But there must come a point where you need extra information, know what the regulation states etc.

Be competent doing power flushes, using correct materials.

All this takes time and experience - how do you get that?

Working with someone - what happens if you are in fulltime exployment - what do you do??

 

[fuzzy]

the water regs and unvented courses are for practising plumbers, not newbies, i would expect them to pass in one day

 

[johnmcginty]

end of day theres fitting a bath, basin, and wc and theres fitting a bathroom i.e in wall showers, shower srceens, diggin the floor to level access, soil stacks (knowing when to t into a stack or is it a vent pipe) units with worktops (butt and scribe joins) loads of stuff whirl pool baths steam rooms.

depends what your talking about as in bathrooms really, my old man could prob blag his way through a bath wc and basin and hes a steel erector - but wouldnt know where to start with a proper bathroom installation.

And as for moving a rad - you know how to drain a combi fill it back up and also know how to confidently bung a f&e tank and cut into pips etc. I dunno if i was a office guy and went on a 2 week course i dunno whether id have the confidence to do all that.

reminds me of a 'quote' i went to about a year ago some diy guy installed a full bathroom suite on 4th floor victorian house in posh end of headingley and needed scaffolding to 't' in to soil stack which was 11meters long and went round side of this house . The scaffolding came down and he wanted a quote to unblock the bog ......he was scratching his head as to why it was blocked . Then I informed him of a few regs and told him the vent pipe he 't' d into was concreted up( i drilled into it) i dont know how or why . Oh you should have seen his face ....what made it more funny was the fact he seemed proud of being the only 'plumber' who managed to 't' in to the soil .......4 floors up aswel I would'nt have liked to see that bill.

 

[CIPHE]

Sad to say that there have been a number of attempts over the years to get a statutory register (read the Institute's history book for all the grim details). Unfortunately there are too many people claiming to be capable and making some kind of living without killing large numbers of people (YET). With grey water and rain water harvesting systems emerging it may not be too long before we get a plumbing Ronan Point and all those who are currently calling themselves plumbers will be forced into a register that you the professionally qualified will be members of too. They will be far less capable than you are but a statutory register that is started from day one will have grandfather rights so we will all be tarred with the same brush.

CIPHE CEO

 

[Avatar]

Alas I also fast tracked to become a plumber, and get in to a trade which there is demand for - which there isnt.

I am now experienced enough to be moving into commercial plumbing, and would be quite happy if the goverment stepped in and stopped people fast tracking into the trade!

It is nuts out there, and we only have us - the lovely British public to blame for it!

We have traditionally had the worst of everything dues to our lazy and penny pinching ways. In the 80's we had the worst food, worst train system, worst tv ect ect (this has not improved a lot really!)

If the general public want cheap, then the tradesmen have to comply somehow, and plumbing is the worst hit in this respect. The public wonder in disbelief about 'rouge traders', not realising that the climate in England has encouraged this growth. Now you have big companies jumping on the bargain basement plumbing boat, by offering maintenance contracts for peanuts.

The whole domestic plumbing arena is falling apart!