A lead gas supply; is it a safety issue?

[BruceK]

Firstly, thankyou for including me in your membership. I do general jobs and may ask for help in several different areas from time to time.
Some time ago a pensioner customer, for whom I do odd jobs, had a smart meter fitted for gas and another for electricity. The fitter went ahead with the installation, then issued her with a warning notice, telling her that because the gas supply pipework to her house was made from led (so he wasn't great at spelling) her installation was unsafe and categorised as 'AT RISK' and she should not use any of her gas appliances until it had been upgraded to copper pipe by a competent gas engineer.
Because she's been using the system without problem for the last 50 years, and because we had a cold snap, she ignored his advice and carried on using her gas central heating and her gas hob. Now she's asked me to investigate and I'm wondering if the fitter may have been just trying to scare her into having his company install a new supply line.
1) I've read that 30% of houses built before 1970 still use lead pipework for their gas supply and that, as long as it's stable and undisturbed, it will be okay. Is it actually dangerous to have a lead supply? She can't remember any of her neighbours having new supplies brought in so all the houses in her road must still have similar lead pipework.
2) Should the fitter have actually gone ahead and installed the smart meter if he regarded the installation as dangerous? All the pipework after the meter is in copper.
3) Whose responsibility would it be to replace the supply pipework up to the meter? Is it the lady or her supplier? This 91 year-old is panicking because she's concerned about having to pay for the road to be dug up outside her property and a new pipe brought across her front garden and under the floor to the under-stairs meter? It'll cost her thousands. She's based in Merseyside and her supplier is Scottish Power. I can dig trenches but that's where my gas fitting qualifications end.
4) Doesn't copper pipe cause problems when buried underground? Would yellow MDPE be acceptable instead?
Thanks for reading this. I'd appreciate any feedback/suggestions you may have.
BK

 

[ShaunCorbs]

TBH best get an independent gas safe engy in to test and approv the sys

 

[BruceK]

TBH best get an independent gas safe engy in to test and approv the sys

Thanks for the quick response Shaun. I'll do that. Just out of curiosity though, is it a legal requirement that all systems using lead pipework for gas to be condemned? If so there must be thousands of people out there facing huge bills.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No unless there's signs of distress / damage

 

[townfanjon]

Yes ok , but the last few times I have called the gas transporters they are now recommending to remove the lead , although I would think this is very regional .

 

[Last Plumber]

Firstly, thankyou for including me in your membership. I do general jobs and may ask for help in several different areas from time to time.
Some time ago a pensioner customer, for whom I do odd jobs, had a smart meter fitted for gas and another for electricity. The fitter went ahead with the installation, then issued her with a warning notice, telling her that because the gas supply pipework to her house was made from led (so he wasn't great at spelling) her installation was unsafe and categorised as 'AT RISK' and she should not use any of her gas appliances until it had been upgraded to copper pipe by a competent gas engineer.
Because she's been using the system without problem for the last 50 years, and because we had a cold snap, she ignored his advice and carried on using her gas central heating and her gas hob. Now she's asked me to investigate and I'm wondering if the fitter may have been just trying to scare her into having his company install a new supply line.
1) I've read that 30% of houses built before 1970 still use lead pipework for their gas supply and that, as long as it's stable and undisturbed, it will be okay. Is it actually dangerous to have a lead supply? She can't remember any of her neighbours having new supplies brought in so all the houses in her road must still have similar lead pipework.
2) Should the fitter have actually gone ahead and installed the smart meter if he regarded the installation as dangerous? All the pipework after the meter is in copper.
3) Whose responsibility would it be to replace the supply pipework up to the meter? Is it the lady or her supplier? This 91 year-old is panicking because she's concerned about having to pay for the road to be dug up outside her property and a new pipe brought across her front garden and under the floor to the under-stairs meter? It'll cost her thousands. She's based in Merseyside and her supplier is Scottish Power. I can dig trenches but that's where my gas fitting qualifications end.
4) Doesn't copper pipe cause problems when buried underground? Would yellow MDPE be acceptable instead?
Thanks for reading this. I'd appreciate any feedback/suggestions you may have.
BK

The main service to the property up to and including the Meter is the responsibility of the Gas transporter. In my area that would currently be Cadent. In the past it has been Transco, National Grid etc.
The pipework inside her property from the Meter outlet is the Lady's responsibility. If that is lead, as long as it is correctly sized and sound there is no problem in my opinion.
For peace of mind it might be best to have it tested and inspected by an honest, recommended Gas Safe Registered Engineer.

 

[BruceK]

Yes ok , but the last few times I have called the gas transporters they are now recommending to remove the lead , although I would think this is very regional .

Umm! Thanks townfanjon. Lead pipework must be more dangerous in Merseyside than other parts of the country then! That must explain lots of jokes about scousers that I've heard!

 

[snowhead]

The pipework leading up to the Meter is the responsibility of the gas transporter.
The Pensioner will not have to pay anything assuming everything after the meter is copper.
If the meter fitter has issued an A.R for the pipework INTO the meter, HE should have reported it immediately to whichever Gas company manages the Gas grid in that area. They would have attended same day.

I suspect it's only the final connection into the meter that's lead.

Interestingly I found this in an artcile last week;

Gassafe have been monitoring Smart gas meter work and quote them;

"Overall, smart meter installation is not causing too many issues, but installer competency must be a priority – 28% of installers in GSR’s study had failings in this area"

 

[CHRISX]

Hello BruceK,

Is it the Pipe that comes into the Home TO the Gas Meter that is Lead ?

If so that Pipe is the responsibility of the Gas Supplier / Gas Transporter/ Gas Mains Contractor and your elderly Customer would NOT be responsible for costs incurred in replacing the Lead pipe.

I would advise You to contact which ever Gas Supplier the Lady pays her bills to and ask that they arrange a Gas Engineer to visit and check the pipe that supply`s her Home / Gas Meter because You have been told by a Gas Safe registered Engineer that the Lead pipe is unacceptable and it was categorised as `At Risk` following the `Unsafe Situations` / Gas Safety Regulations.

I do know that at least 20 Years ago British Gas were replacing Lead Meter pipes - the short pipes that went from the ECV to the Meter and sometimes also on the Meter outlet pipework.

Meters that had those short Lead pipes were arranged to be reported by the Meter readers and British Gas then contacted Householders to arrange replace the pipes.

On that basis I would guess that there could be a Safety reason to justify why a Lead pipe TO the Gas Meter should be replaced - and of course if there is any sign of deterioration or damage it certainly should be.

However as far as I know regarding the Gas Safety Regulations if a Lead Gas pipe is encountered within a dwelling and it is not showing any signs of deterioration or damage and a Tightness Test is passed there is NO Regulation which specify s that it must be replaced.

Previously the official Safety categorisation would be `Not to current Standards` but this has been dropped and perhaps in this case the Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer decided that because of that NCS category no longer being applicable he wanted to state that the Lead pipe should be replaced.

Although he should NOT have stated that it was `At Risk` and that it should not be used unless the pipe was showing signs of deterioration.

I hope that You manage to reassure your elderly Customer that She will NOT have to pay the probably very high cost IF the Lead Gas Supply pipe does have to be replaced.

Chris

EDIT: Member snowhead beat me to it with the same information - he posted while I was writing my message.

 

[BruceK]

Yes ok , but the last few times I have called the gas transporters they are now recommending to remove the lead , although I would think this is very regional .

The pipework leading up to the Meter is the responsibility of the gas transporter.
The Pensioner will not have to pay anything assuming everything after the meter is copper.
If the meter fitter has issued an A.R for the pipework INTO the meter, HE should have reported it immediately to whichever Gas company manages the Gas grid in that area. They would have attended same day.

I suspect it's only the final connection into the meter that's lead.

Interestingly I found this in an artcile last week;

Gassafe have been monitoring Smart gas meter work and quote them;

"Overall, smart meter installation is not causing too many issues, but installer competency must be a priority – 28% of installers in GSR’s study had failings in this area"

That's really useful. Thankyou. No distress to the pipework, just to the old lady. I can understand that remedial work should be recommended but thought the fitter's course of action was a bit extreme. In fact I'm surprised he had even started the job if he regarded the lead pipework as a high risk. There's been no contact from the supplier so maybe it wasn't reported, even though the AR notice is genuine.
It's very interesting that such a high number of installers had competency failings. I'll certainly call on the services of a Gas Safe engineer and we'll take it from there.
Just out of interest again, what is the best material for underground gas pipework? The route would be under tarmac, then under a garden wall, across a lawn, under a brick paved path/drive and then into the house which has a wooden floor. I'm glad I won't have to dig the trench.

 

[BruceK]

Hello BruceK,

Is it the Pipe that comes into the Home TO the Gas Meter that is Lead ?

If so that Pipe is the responsibility of the Gas Supplier / Gas Transporter/ Gas Mains Contractor and your elderly Customer would NOT be responsible for costs incurred in replacing the Lead pipe.

I would advise You to contact which ever Gas Supplier the Lady pays her bills to and ask that they arrange a Gas Engineer to visit and check the pipe that supply`s her Home / Gas Meter because You have been told by a Gas Safe registered Engineer that the Lead pipe is unacceptable and it was categorised as `At Risk` following the `Unsafe Situations` / Gas Safety Regulations.

I do know that at least 20 Years ago British Gas were replacing Lead Meter pipes - the short pipes that went from the ECV to the Meter and sometimes also on the Meter outlet pipework.

Meters that had those short Lead pipes were arranged to be reported by the Meter readers and British Gas then contacted Householders to arrange replace the pipes.

On that basis I would guess that there could be a Safety reason to justify why a Lead pipe TO the Gas Meter should be replaced - and of course if there is any sign of deterioration or damage it certainly should be.

However as far as I know regarding the Gas Safety Regulations if a Lead Gas pipe is encountered within a dwelling and it is not showing any signs of deterioration or damage and a Tightness Test is passed there is NO Regulation which specify s that it must be replaced.

Previously the official Safety categorisation would be `Not to current Standards` but this has been dropped and perhaps in this case the Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer decided that because of that NCS category no longer being applicable he wanted to state that the Lead pipe should be replaced.

Although he should NOT have stated that it was `At Risk` and that it should not be used unless the pipe was showing signs of deterioration.

I hope that You manage to reassure your elderly Customer that She will NOT have to pay the probably very high cost IF the Lead Gas Supply pipe does have to be replaced.

Chris

Thanks again for all these pointers. Yes, it's the pipework supplying the meter that's lead, so we'll contact the suppliers. I might contact the smart meter fitting company too, to let them know what you've told me.
I'll certainly pass on your reassurances to the lady. She'll be very relieved and I may even get some brownie points!
Thankyou.
BruceK

 

[CHRISX]

That's really useful. Thankyou. No distress to the pipework, just to the old lady. I can understand that remedial work should be recommended but thought the fitter's course of action was a bit extreme. In fact I'm surprised he had even started the job if he regarded the lead pipework as a high risk. There's been no contact from the supplier so maybe it wasn't reported, even though the AR notice is genuine.
It's very interesting that such a high number of installers had competency failings. I'll certainly call on the services of a Gas Safe engineer and we'll take it from there.
Just out of interest again, what is the best material for underground gas pipework? The route would be under tarmac, then under a garden wall, across a lawn, under a brick paved path/drive and then into the house which has a wooden floor. I'm glad I won't have to dig the trench.

Hello again BruceK,

Regarding your comment:

`I'll certainly call on the services of a Gas Safe engineer and we'll take it from there`.

You don`t need to engage a Gas Safe Engineer because they cannot renew the Incoming Gas Supply TO the Gas Meter - it is the `property` of the Gas Supplier / Transporter.

I was not suggesting that You could arrange for a Gas Safe Engineer to replace the Gas Supply pipe but that the Gas Supplier / Transporter would then have to pay for the work.

The Gas Supplier would have to replace their Gas Supply pipe at their cost and whatever pipe route that they decide - IF they agree after an Inspection that it should be replaced.

Chris

 

[BruceK]

Gottit! Thanks Chris.