Advice Needed Help! Old Style Gas Hob

[Paul Walker]

I am desperate for help, my 73 year old father asked me to complete his meter readings online for him which I did. I was asked if we wanted a smart meter which I thought would be a great idea for him. However when teh engineer turned up he inspected the appliances and found that his gas hob which is a Zanussi A9019 and has been installed for many years was not compliant. The hob has a glass lid and there is no safety device to cut out the supply when the lid is closed. its not a question of the safety device being inoperable - there isn't one fitted (By design I would assume due to age). The engineer has condemned the unit and capped my fathers supply. He now has no hot water, no heating, no cooking facility. Was the engineer correct in his actions? apart from the clear morale issue of leaving a 73 year old without any heat or cooking, technically if the device was not designed with the safety device surely there must but thousands out there that are not compliant? Your help and advice would be really appreciated. thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

They do a visual and if anything doesn’t comply they shut the whole supply off and tell you to get a gas safe engy in to fix the issue/ turn you back on

As there not fully gas safe etc eg can’t repair or replace

 

[firemant]

There is nothing wrong with the hob. If there is no FSD factory fitted, it is not required. This industry is full of morons who read or are told something and have no clue as to how to interpret it.

OP: The age of your father has no bearing on how we are required to react in the face of ceratin situations - the process is laid down by Regulations and Codes of Practice, and we are obliged to follow them. However, in this case, you have been visited by an over zealous and under trained operative.
If you have the inclination, phone Gas Safe, explain the situation, and ask them to clarify the position, with notes on the relevant Reg no's. and get a name of the conatct. They are unlikely to take any action, but when you then phone the company to complain and demand that they rectify - the weight of a named Gas Safe individual will carry more weight than a Plumbing Website Keyboard Warrior. All IMO.

 

[firemant]

Does the cooker carry a label as per the below? If not, DO NOT quote this, if it does then fill your boots. If it does not, ask them to provide details of the clause upon which they are relying to support their fitter.

Excerpt from:

The Gas Cooking Appliances (Safety) Regulations 1989

5.2 (b)​

in the case of an appliance incorporating a shut-down lid which is not so constructed that the hot-plate burners are automatically shut off when the lid is shut down, the appliance shall bear a warning, set out in legible and durable characters under the lid, that it is dangerous to close the lid without extinguishing the hot-plate burners.​

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H​

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[Sharp Point]

I’ve been to a situation like this a couple of times, me and the tenant/ customer agreed for me to take the lid off.

Job done

 

[firemant]

,

I’ve been to a situation like this a couple of times, me and the tenant/ customer agreed for me to take the lid off.

Job done

That is fair enough, BR, but why shoud the OP pay cash for an RGI to re-connect the gas and reinstate the appliances, as well as modify a legal appliance because an inept operative has got it wrong. It is occuring too much, and punters need to make a stand. It also reduces the credibility of trade professionals in the eyes of the public

 

[Sharp Point]

That is fair enough, BR, but why shoud the OP pay cash for an RGI to re-connect the gas and reinstate the appliances, as well as modify a legal appliance because an inept operative has got it wrong. It is occuring too much, and punters need to make a stand. It also reduces the credibility of trade professionals in the eyes of the public

I completely agree, but I’ve know doubt that it’s protocol with any corporate company to switch off if not sure or doesn’t comply.

 

[firemant]

I completely agree, but I’ve know doubt that it’s protocol with any corporate company to switch off if not sure or doesn’t comply.

Possibly, but they should not be allowed to get away with it. It makes my blood boil to see punters ripped off. It is an abuse of power

 

[Rob Foster]

Possibly, but they should not be allowed to get away with it. It makes my blood boil to see punters ripped off. It is an abuse of power

What a bastard jobsworth I am ashamed to walk the same earth as one like this centralheatking

 

[firemant]

What a bastard jobsworth I am ashamed to walk the same earth as one like this centralheatking

Do you mean me or the meter mucker ?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Does the cooker carry a label as per the below? If not, DO NOT quote this, if it does then fill your boots. If it does not, ask them to provide details of the clause upon which they are relying to support their fitter.

Excerpt from:

The Gas Cooking Appliances (Safety) Regulations 1989


5.2 (b)​

in the case of an appliance incorporating a shut-down lid which is not so constructed that the hot-plate burners are automatically shut off when the lid is shut down, the appliance shall bear a warning, set out in legible and durable characters under the lid, that it is dangerous to close the lid without extinguishing the hot-plate burners.

H​

What planet are you on. Even though this is completely annoying. These engineers are told to cap off if there is something outside there scope. You may not like it but if it was something you wasn’t sure of you would do the exact the same thing. The above regs only apply if there was a notice on the coker, which there wouldn’t have been and it isn’t his job to write it on. We may not like it but he has done his job. Cut people some slack, you only have one side of the story and haven’t been onsite.

 

[townfanjon]

The meter guy cocked up , simples .

 

[Harvest Fields]

I still say it is easy to point the finger when you haven’t been on site.

We all know exactly what they do when they find something. It will never be any different.

 

[Rob Foster]

There are loads of frustrated wannabes about. The re cycling police at the dump, parking thugs, and under qualfied new meter fitters who cannot do the full job. Then take it out on an old man...it would not happen to me. Smart meters are carp anyway, intermediate dis jointed technology. Sunday rant over ...centralheatking

 

[Harvest Fields]

There are loads of frustrated wannabes about. The re cycling police at the dump, parking thugs, and under qualfied new meter fitters who cannot do the full job. Then take it out on an old man...it would not happen to me. Smart meters are carp anyway, intermediate dis jointed technology. Sunday rant over ...centralheatking

Yes it would happen to you Rob. As he has done what he is trained to, which is his job.

 

[firemant]

What planet are you on. Even though this is completely annoying. These engineers are told to cap off if there is something outside there scope. You may not like it but if it was something you wasn’t sure of you would do the exact the same thing. The above regs only apply if there was a notice on the coker, which there wouldn’t have been and it isn’t his job to write it on. We may not like it but he has done his job. Cut people some slack, you only have one side of the story and haven’t been onsite.

I am on planet Normal, I thought you were as well, TBF. The company has no right to make up their own rules and cause expense and aggravation to members of the public. Imagine nipping into a garage to have a tyre changed before going on holiday, and the garage clamping the car because they "did not like the look" of something that may need attention but is legal to drive.
How can it be fair to cap off (in fact, in this case, isolate the whole house from the gas supply!) because YOUR fitters are inadequate. Even if there is no label it is NOT ID, therefore no right to arbitarily deprive a householder.
This attitude is so pervasive in the industry. Too many guys think they are gods and have special skills. Get real, most of us are NOT even engineers. We have a privileged position in the world of work. Not many folk run a business doing a job for which you must (should) be licenced, and guys here believe that they are actually worth a grand a day. Although I strongly suspect that there is a good deal of exaggeration going on.

 

[firemant]

I still say it is easy to point the finger when you haven’t been on site.

We all know exactly what they do when they find something. It will never be any different.

It is fair to say "it is easy to point the finger when you haven’t been on site". (But that works both ways) But this cse is fairly clear.

 

[Harvest Fields]

In your own opinion it is. He capped it because he isn’t trained to know. Your arguement shouldn’t be blaming him. It should be the fact that they are not trained enough. They clearly need more training. That point I do agree with. I’m tired of people putting the blame onto someone else. We should be working together not against each other. Winds me up.

 

[Paul Walker]

Many thanks to you all, so if my understanding is correct. The fact that the hob was designed to operate without any fitment of a safety cut off (and it doesn’t have any warning on the lid) means that although it doesn’t currently confirm to the regulations it did at the time and therefore would not warrant an ID notice or the capping of the supply? My next step is to speak to gassafe (does anyone have a number?) and obtain confirmation from them and the specific regulation that deems the equipment safe before engaging back with the gas supplier to lodge a formal complaint? Thanks again to you all for your input.

 

[snowhead]

To the O.P,
Did the meter fitter find the Hob issue on an initial survey prior to exchanging the Gas meter or after the new meter was fitted?

Also prior to Capping, did the Meter fitter ask your Father's permission to cap and did your Father give permission, was this in writing?

 

[firemant]

In your own opinion it is. He capped it because he isn’t trained to know. Your arguement shouldn’t be blaming him. It should be the fact that they are not trained enough. They clearly need more training. That point I do agree with. I’m tired of people putting the blame onto someone else. We should be working together not against each other. Winds me up.

My argument was clearly with the company and their "policies". I cannot think of any other industry that would act in that manner. I am justified in also slating the individuals that cap stuff off to "CYA", simply because they do nothave the understanding to do the job properly. You have NO right to cap off because you are terrified that you might get it wrong. Witness the number of times that you read that there is no NCS so it must be AR!

In this case |I am with the OP all the way, if he has the time, inclination and patience, he should be suing the meter firm.

 

[Paul Walker]

To the O.P,
Did the meter fitter find the Hob issue on an initial survey prior to exchanging the Gas meter or after the new meter was fitted?

Also prior to Capping, did the Meter fitter ask your Father's permission to cap and did your Father give permission, was this in writing?

Hi - it was before the fitting of the meter I believe and my father signed the fitters document which was the warning advice note confirming that he understood the fitters instructions. My father refused him permission to cap the supply but was told that he had no choice and if it wasn’t capped then they would request the network operator cut off supply to his residence.

 

[firemant]

although it doesn’t currently confirm to the regulations it did at the time and therefore would not warrant an ID notice o

Paul, it actually DOES comply IF there is a label as per my previous. It is NOT ID in any case, and certainly should not be cappe off. At most it is AR, and the correct procedure is to to TURN OFF the offending appliance, and issue a DO NOT USE label pus a warning notice. Your father should have been asked for permission to cap off.

Yes to the rest.

Good luck, and let us know what transpires.

 

[Paul Walker]

Paul, it actually DOES comply IF there is a label as per my previous. It is NOT ID in any case, and certainly should not be cappe off. At most it is AR, and the correct procedure is to to TURN OFF the offending appliance, and issue a DO NOT USE label pus a warning notice. Your father should have been asked for permission to cap off.

Yes to the rest.

Good luck, and let us know what transpires.

Thanks worth just saying that the engineer said that there wasn’t a way of isolating the appliance on its own hence capping the whole supply. So we are justified in raising the complaint ?

 

[firemant]

Hi - it was before the fitting of the meter I believe and my father signed the fitters document which was the warning advice note confirming that he understood the fitters instructions. My father refused him permission to cap the supply but was told that he had no choice and if it wasn’t capped then they would request the network operator cut off supply to his residence.

Bully tactics.

If it was a genuine ID, he is correct that he would inform Cadent etc. They would visit and, ultimately, cut off in the street if the householder was not co-operative. However, they would attempt to gain entry to satisfy themselves that there is an ID situation and make their own decision. They would not charge in and dig up - and often there is a valve or meter outside the house that they will isolate with.

I have actually been with Nat Grid when we were callled to a definite ID (Flue into a conservatory!). The house owner was intransigent and refused the service guy permission to disconnect. He let us in, but had a vintage motor parked up to the meter in the house which he refused to move for us. The boss was called, he re explained evrything, including the consequence of a street dig up, and eventually the old guy relented, and we capped the boiler. It took a couple of hours.

In the case under discussion, it is a shame the old boy did not dig his heels in, but he probably felt under pressure. Even if it was ID, he would have been in no worse a position than he ended up in.