Advice on Upgraded Heating Installation

[jonespr1]

Hi

My parents recently had their central heating completely upgraded from an old oil boiler and cylinder installation, installed circa 25 years ago to a new more energy efficient oil boiler (Worcester Greenstar Danesmoor 25/32) with an un-vented Tempest mains pressure hot water cylinder, there has been changes to pipework, new pumps, controls etc.

Whilst the work all seems to have been completed tidily, they have a few niggles with the installation, they have had the plumbers back this week, but no resolution since initial installation 3 weeks ago. I want to ensure that it's a case of genuine error/problem with the system, rather than poor workmanship, I have attached a picture of the pipework around the tank and was hoping with the commentary below someone may be able to offer their thoughts - I notice they haven't completed their details on the tank and haven't heard anything regarding a notification to Building Control, which is what raised my concerns initially, but they are Worcester approved installers with relevant qualifications.

• Dirty hot water, despite having emptied the tank several times and 3 weeks having passed since installation, the hot water is still discoloured, this is worse when the water hasn't been used i.e. in the morning. I assume this is because of the mains pressure hot water 'cleaning out' the old pipework in the house, however, should this not have passed by now? Is there any other possible explanations i.e. could the water tank be faulty and water leaching from radiators into hot water? There has been no loss of pressure in the system.
• Previously they had low pressure hot water, they now have higher pressure from the hot water than the cold, how is this possible?
• To the right of the tank in the picture is a timer, they were told that this was installed to re-circulate water around the system (and is set on for 3 hours in morning and 3 in afternoon) to ensure hot water was available quicker when required. I wasn't aware that the pipework in their house was configured to enable this (circular?) and have only heard of this in commercial installations such as a hotel. Whilst this seems a sensible idea, in practise it doesn't appear to make any difference and in my mind if the water is out of tank and circulating the un-lagged pipes in the house it is cooling and inefficient. Has there been a mis-understanding here or is this the likely purpose of this timer?
• I believe there is supposed to be a 300mm drop before a turn below the Tundish, which isn't the case, is this likely to be a problem, what are the implications?

I appreciate any advice you can offer as well as any other thoughts on the installation.

Thanks

Robert

 

[SimonG]

1. Tundish pipework not to regs. Are the installers g3 registered?
2. Wheres the insulation?
3. Have the installers oftec or some other competent person scheme registration? And has the installation been notified to local building control.
4. How bigs the house? Secondary returns are expensive to run, especially notbinsulated, and probably not required.

ps welcome to the forum.

 

[SimonG]

Also looks older than 3 weeks, did they re use the old copper pipe?

 

[jonespr1]

1. Tundish pipework not to regs. Are the installers g3 registered?
2. Wheres the insulation?
3. Have the installers oftec or some other competent person scheme registration? And has the installation been notified to local building control.
4. How bigs the house? Secondary returns are expensive to run, especially notbinsulated, and probably not required.

ps welcome to the forum.

Thanks SimonG.

1) Is it just the distance to the first bend and what is the impact of this? I'm not sure regarding G3 registration.
2) There was none!
3) I know they're OFTEC registered, not sure if it has been notified, would they receive paperwork to confirm this.
4) 4 bedroom, but just my parents living there now.

 

[jonespr1]

Also looks older than 3 weeks, did they re use the old copper pipe?

Yes, I think they reused some of the existing pipework, would it be standard practise to re-run?

Presumably that would mean lots of lifting of floorboards etc - which probably isn't ideal if not needed?

Thanks

Robert

 

[SimonG]

If they have made a mistake with something as simple as the tundish, on view, I would hate to think what you cant see. Also it wont allow the water to run away correctly. How long does the discharge pipe from the tundish run and how many bends, approx. This is basic stuff on an unvented install and does my nuts in when people dont even read the instructions.

4 bed house, I would really not expect a secondary return.

no, the copper pipes in the cylinder cupboard dont look 3 weeks old, not to me anyway.

You should receive two certificates from your local council. One for cylinder install and one for boiler install. These go with your house documents, because if its ever sold then the purchasing solicitor will want to see them.

 

[hammers4spanner]

rough

 

[Rickster123]

I hate these types of threads. If you have serious concerns why don't you contact a local G3 and Oftec registered guy to come and take a look? It's hard to tell from a picture the full extent of the issues.

 

[jonespr1]

If they have made a mistake with something as simple as the tundish, on view, I would hate to think what you cant see. Also it wont allow the water to run away correctly. How long does the discharge pipe from the tundish run and how many bends, approx. This is basic stuff on an unvented install and does my nuts in when people dont even read the instructions.

4 bed house, I would really not expect a secondary return.

no, the copper pipes in the cylinder cupboard dont look 3 weeks old, not to me anyway.

You should receive two certificates from your local council. One for cylinder install and one for boiler install. These go with your house documents, because if its ever sold then the purchasing solicitor will want to see them.

Giving the benefit of the doubt I thought they may have used an existing pipe which went out through the wall rather than make a mess drilling a new one and that the 300mm had no real impact - it's an old house and the walls are 4ft thick!

Pretty sure they replaced mist of pipes in cupboard, visting tmrw and can take a better look.

No certificates received as yet....

thanks again for your advice.

 

[jonespr1]

That will probably be the next step, there was a lack of options for a Worcester and OFTEC plumber in mid wales, there was only two to choose from!

Thanks

Robert

I hate these types of threads. If you have serious concerns why don't you contact a local G3 and Oftec registered guy to come and take a look? It's hard to tell from a picture the full extent of the issues.

 

[Sharp Point]

rough

Thats a little harsh, i wouldn't quite say its rough. The pipework has been clipped and adequately supported, its fairly neat, the joints have been wiped clean. The only misdemeanor i can see is that D2 MAYBE longer than 600mm.

 

[Rickster123]

Thats a little harsh, i wouldn't quite say its rough. The pipework has been clipped and adequately supported, its fairly neat, the joints have been wiped clean. The only misdemeanor i can see is that D2 MAYBE longer than 600mm.

He's talking about the wallpaper.... Boom boom!

 

[hammers4spanner]

Thats a little harsh, i wouldn't quite say its rough. The pipework has been clipped and adequately supported, its fairly neat, the joints have been wiped clean. The only misdemeanor i can see is that D2 MAYBE longer than 600mm.

So you don't think the copper has been stored in the garage for about 6 months??

 

[wetdrip]

"Dirty hot water, despite having emptied the tank several times and 3 weeks having passed since installation, the hot water is still discoloured, this is worse when the water hasn't been used i.e. in the morning."

If I didn't know any better and I don't: I say there's steel wool rusting away in the tank.

 

[Best]

I have just spotted something.
Has the cold feed got a stopcock on it?
Surely that's going to shut the expansion vessel off from the unit?
Or am I wrong?

Had another look and that is definitely wrong. Only thing you can put on the cold feed between the combination valve and unit is a draincock. No valve is permissible on the pipe and you are not supposed to do any other supplies also from that pipe.
Clearly the installers don't really know what they are doing and might not be G3. Combination valve is fitted above the unit, which is correct, but that one is far too high which is pointless and will make servicing it awkward. Work looks neat though, just a pity they haven't read the MIs before doing any work. It is stated very clearly in the instructions the basic regs.

 

[stevetheplumber]

cant see the motorised valve and that stopcock is definitley wrong

 

[AWheating]

stopcock on cold as best spotted, major safety risk , kaboom!!