Boiler stove with oil boiler advice needed please

[JayGardner]

Hi all

I have purchased a 20Kw Stratford Stove (eb20he) to link up to my current central heating system (oil) i want the stove to do both Heating and hot water, but i want the stove and boiler to work in tandem, one to boost the other so to speak. My brother-in-law is a plumber (of some 30years) but has never had to install this kind of system before, we have both read the install instructions and hit a snag regarding the heating pump.
The problem we have is that the water from the stove needs to be pumped around the CH system but the boiler also has a pump that it turns on and off when it kicks in, so how do we get the two to work with each other without having to manually switch the CH pump on and off? I was thinking that becasue the Stove and boiler are so close to each other can we simply T the stove pipes diecly into the CH pipes coming out of the boiler, then but a pipe stat set to switch the pump on when it reaches a certain temp (on the CH pipes close to were the heat sorce is created)? This would then ensure the pump comes on when either the boiler heating the Ch or the stove or both, or am i barking up the wrong tree? The boiler is in a room directly behind the fireplace so the heating pipes from the stove will only be about 1m before they T into the CH.
I have read up on linkup solutions such as the Esse centraliser and Dunsford Neutraliser etc but cant really see the point of using one of these with my system, and to be honest i dont have the room for one of these boxes.
I should also mention the hot water side is all ok we currently have a gravety system in place.
The Boiler stove has 4 connections on the back which we intend to use.

Any advice would be much appreciated, i hope my explanation makes sense to someone.

 

[SimonG]

Needs linking up properly, anything else is a bodge and potentially dangerous.

 

[dancinplumba]

Your best bet would be to employ someone who knows what they are doing :
Oh, welcome to the BEST Plumbing forum

 

[lame plumber]

20kw stove, you wont need clothes with that roaring away, and you wont ever use that room again as itll be a sauna

 

[JayGardner]

Thank you for the replys, but they aren't very helpful on afraid. A simple yes it will work if.....or no it won't work because......or you have to use a neutraliser because.... Would have done, we are trying to keep things simple. The install is being done by a qualified heating engineer (not heatas qualified admittedly) but this isn't a diy job if that's what your thinking, if I think the plumber isnt up to it based on answers you u guys give I will indeed get a heatas qualified in. I'm simply asking for advice. By the way the living room this stove is going in is 21m square so I don't think it will be too big especially if a take a rad or two out the room.

Thanks for anything helpful anyone can offer

 

[Roger Welton]

What you propose won't work, you really need a (wet qualified) HETAS engineer to sort you out, either nuetraliser or thermal store (apropriatly sized) would be my thought.

 

[SimonG]

A professional would not be suggesting what you had in your first post. If you don't like being told to do it properly then maybe you need to ask a yes man.

 

[TomLane]

Thanks for anything helpful anyone can offer

I think you'll find you have had a very helpful set of responses! One the of the most helpful advice was to get someone in! It's all very well to speculate & advise over the Internet but there is no substitute for an expert seeing your property first hand & advising on what is best for said property. You could end up spending lots of money doing it wrong & something dangerous happening or the correct amount & having an efficient & fully working system.

No brainer really.

 

[JayGardner]

Thanks for the replys, it won't work and you need to use a neutraliser was all I needed to hear, We got there in the end didn't we!

 

[SimonG]

But a neutraliser is only one option!

 

[lame plumber]

Thanks for the replys, it won't work and you need to use a neutraliser was all I needed to hear, We got there in the end didn't we!

if your brother in law knew his stuff you wouldnt have needed to ask, so as it went you need to get in a hetas qualified person to sort you out as a plumber of 30 years experience doesnt mean anything if he doesnt know what he is doing. Like other people have said theres various ways of doing it and your system needs to be looked at to ascertain the best option

 

[josh]

why do so many people that come on here having just bought stoves (probably of the net) and just assume they can cut some tee's in (speedfit ones at that).

 

[lame plumber]

why do so many people that come on here having just bought stoves (probably of the net) and just assume they can cut some tee's in (speedfit ones at that).

because no one in government will legislate to do things right, they are too worried about introducing more and more moronic mot tests items so that perfectly good vehicles get written off or going for kick backs fm wind turbine companies when all we need is a nuclear option that doesnt involve the production of weapons grade materials rant over

 

[Pipes Plumbing]

The problem is partly that stoves are so easily available to the public and there is very little perception of the dangers of a badly installed stove can pose, or the level of energy that will be wasted in a badly designed or installed system.
This leads to many, many stoves being bought that are the wrong size for the property, causing problems with the useability of the system later...

In response to the original post, no the proposed solution won't work properly. At best would turn the stove into a giant rad heating the air going up the flue, at worst will lead to the flow water boiling in the stove and creating a world of problems.

You do have a number of options that one of us HETAS wet installers could talk you through and put forward as a solution to your system.
These options would vary depending on the proportion of the stove's heat output to water vs the room, the layout of your property, it's size, heat requirements and the existing system that is in place already. These could vary from any of the below:

- H2 Panel
- Thermal Store
- Plate Heat exchanger and controlling thermostats separating the stove from the existing system (if it is pressurised).
- Neutraliser / low loss header
- Seperate system feeding a number of rads / hot water completely aside from the existing system (probably not with a 20kw stove)

A site survey by a qualified engineer would give you a really good starting point to go from, so that you end up with a system that works well and doesn't create any problems.

 

[quality]

H2 panel every time, done a good few and great results with every one

 

[Gray0689]

Thanks for the replys, it won't work and you need to use a neutraliser was all I needed to hear, We got there in the end didn't we!

Not as simple as that if your brother in law with 30 years experience has never worked on solid fuel link ups what sort of plumbing does he do
As this would of been a very common thing

 

[JayGardner]

Pipes plumbing thanks for the advice I have looked at all the systems you suggested. For the record the pipestat idea was mine and I still havnt got a good explanation as to why it won't work, but I trust in those who know more than me. My plumber does have 30 years experience although the last 10 has been behind a desk telling other plumbers what to do,but now the company he works for has gone bust and now he is self employed getting his hands dirty again, and is a little rusty.
The current hot water cylinder is way to small for the size of property (4 bed detached, built in 1970s) so we are replacing it. I have looked at thermal Heat stores and like the idea of Mains pressure hot water so I don't need pumps for power showers In the future. How economical are they? And will the oil boiler need to work overtime to keep the hot water up during the summer? Also I understand that all heat sources go into the cylinder and are then pumped from there to the CH, how exactly does that pump know when to come on and off? A separate room stat from that linked to the oil boiler?

Thanks, by the way guys this forum is for professionals and diy so go easy ok, the first few replys made me feel like I had been thrown into a shark tank.

 

[lame plumber]

if your going thermal store then a sensible option is to have solar panels to heat the store and negate the need for a boiler except as a boost in summer, you really need someone in to advice you, as a forum isnt the place to design a new system

 

[Pipes Plumbing]

As above, solar works really well with a thermal store! But again, advice on sizing etc would be needed first hand...
In terms of efficiency, a good quality thermal store will be up there with the most efficient systems but a bad (or badly installed) one will waste energy in the same way as any badly designed system.

With your hot water in the summer when the stove isn't on, the oil boiler will fire the same amount as if it was heating the water stored in a cylinder for use directly (within reason). It will take the same amount of energy to make 10 litres of hot water whether it's done via a cylinder or on demand from a store...

The central heating is still called via the room stat and programmer as normal, it will be wired to call the pump rather than the boilers though.