British Gas Homecare, Sludge, and boiler diagnosis

[swiftone75]

Hello All,

I'm hoping someone can help, I have had various boiler problems with my Heatline S24 Combi for awhile, including cutting out. I have British gas home care, but they refused to do anything much unless I pay £800+ for a power flush, due to sludge. I decided to flush it myself, I done all the radiators on their own and flushed the system well. (weeks of work).

They still insist as they did not flush it does not count – however clean the system is. (big benefit to home care is learning plumbing yourself I guess, I don't touch anything inside the boiler or to do with gas) Now, as I suspected before, removing sludge did help, but there were other things at play. I’m hoping someone can ID this problem, as unless I know what the problem is, they will just blame sludge. I am sure the system is clear. Here are the symptoms:

The boiler pressure rises on its own – up to about 3-4 bar, when I imagine the relief valve kicks in.(I have verified the filling loop is fully shut off) The boiler sometimes works fine – without cutting in/out, then suddenly the flame goes out, and the no-gas light starts flashing. (I have verified gas valve is fully open). when it does work it gets hot - but does not seem to be enough power to heat up all radiators fully (although hot water is boiling).

It tries to restart multiple times, with the gas “thump” but nothing happens. sometimes after turning it off and on again it works fine for awhile. Its not behaving like it did when it had sludge in. I did think the system could need re-pressurizing, when I went to the back the valve was slightly wet – is it possible the expansion vessel is gone?.

Pumping it up did not seem to help. If anyone has any ideas, and can give me a rough view as to the chances of it being Sludge are,I cannot afford to get a plumber in outside of British gas, or buy a new expansion vessel, British gas should cover it, I just need to know the chances of this being sludge – as if its not, they should fix it (well, they should, do not know if they will).

Thanks

 

[Mbear]

How did u flush it?

How did u repressurise the vessel?

 

[swiftone75]

I flushed each radiator on its own in the garden with a hose. and gentle knocking with a soft ended item. once all were replaced, I shut them all off and flushed the boiler on its own by disconnecting a radiator and connecting a hose and running it through. (un till boiler fired up for hot water, then same with central heating.) so I flushed out the main heat exchanger and the DHW one.

I refilled the system with with the filling loop - I did not repressureize at this time, Later I drained the system, connected a bicycle pump - and gave it about 5-8 pumps, did not seem to make a difference. I thought as there was a bit of water on the valve that might be a sign the vessel was gone?.but I do not know if the symptoms point to that.

Flushing helped it work without cutting off, when it decided to, but other problems remained. But i'm no expert - just been forced to DIY due to british gas not doing what I paid them for .

Thanks

 

[Mbear]

So u flushed the system with a garden hose and not a powerflush machine with chemicals (which does work by the by). I'm unsure but I heard bg don't cover sludge and therefore problems that arise due to the sludge (sticking divertor valves/failing pumps/choked heat exchangers the list can be endless).

"If" that is written in their small print then I struggle to see how u can argue with them, but again that's only "if" the problems u are experiencing are caused by sludge. Its difficult to tell without seeing ur boiler for myself what's wrong.

A garden hose is no match for A proper power flush machine with the correct chemicals im afraid

 

[mickie]

take the filling loop off, does water flow through it or does it leak? if it does its the loop valves..

if you let all the air out of the expansion tank, does water leak from the nipple? if it does you need a new tank.

did you fill it full of air with no pressure in the heating system? how much pressure did you put in it?

does the pressure go up with or without the heating on, if it goes up with the heating off its not the tank, it could be the heat exchanger.. if you turn the cold supply off to the boiler, does the pressure stop going up..

forget about sludge, that wont make the pressure go up, i'd also cancel your payments to BG unless you like wasing money

 

[swiftone75]

Hello, Thanks for the reply.


I understand it will not be as good as a power flush, however it did remove a lot of gunk, and was
done extensively, probably 20+ hours of flushing. however the initial problem was it cutting out fairly often, but still working, after flushing, it ran better than it had for years, flame would stay on constantly, and It had got a lot of sludge out. So even if it was not perfect it was better than it had been.


The problem is although there was sludge, I think British gas are using it as an excuse not do fix anything, even things that may not be caused by sludge. its now acting differently than it was before the flush, its not cutting out every now and then, but instead works fine for awhile, with stable flame (which did not happen when I had more sludge), but then the no gas light will come on, with pressure rising, and the boiler will “thump” when it tries to light the gas but then there will be no flame.


If it is sludge then they have a get out – but they seem to put everything down to sludge, surely every problem in a boiler can't be sludge? If it is why have cover. Their radiator cover also does not cover sludge or valves, well surely that does not leave many possible radiator problems left?


I am clearly no expert – I was just wondering if rising pressure, no gas warning, suddenly not working at all, but then working fine, + water on expansion vessel points to anything other than sludge?. I understand its not easy to know without seeing it, if it is still sludge I’ll hire a machine and chemicals and get it done – just got a feeling something else is at play as well, but I could be wrong. But while I’m paying premiums to British gas I want to make sure they do fix it if sludge is not the cause.


Thanks

 

[mickie]

does hot water work?

 

[marleyco]

Regardless to the problem, the way I see It, bg can push a powerflush on any of their customers with no choice, as they will not cover their boiler. We can only assume it need's one and isn't just a hard sale as we all know they do. I don't dispute the fact they may be right, but where does it end. What if they do one, the boiler still acts the same way, surely it means its not been the problem and they give your money back. I don't do flushing but if I was to tell my customer they needed one, then it would be to solve an issue. If it didn't I would feel quite bad.

 

[swiftone75]

Thanks -

I think the water is flowing through the loop ok. I was not sure about how much pressure I got in, I had drained the system first, I think the pressure goes up when the heatings on or off.

also I drain the system to get the pressure back to 1-1.5 bar when it goes too high, but even when the pressure is fine, it can work fine with a stable flame - then its like a switch is flicked and the no gas light comes on, and the boiler finds it nearly impossible to start a flame, no gas light sometimes goes off again,
seems random, but the fact that the flame is stable when it does work - its not cutting on and off all the time like sludge might cause it to do, but instead it decides its had enough and seems to not have any gas - but it must do?.

I will try and check if it goes up with the cold water off, and try and verify the water from the expansion tank.

Thanks

 

[swiftone75]

hot water and heating work perfectly when it decides to work - however once the flame refuses to light again and the no gas light comes on, neither hot water or heating work at all.

 

[swiftone75]

Regardless to the problem, the way I see It, bg can push a powerflush on any of their customers with no choice, as they will not cover their boiler. We can only assume it need's one and isn't just a hard sale as we all know they do. I don't dispute the fact they may be right, but where does it end. What if they do one, the boiler still acts the same way, surely it means its not been the problem and they give your money back. I don't do flushing but if I was to tell my customer they needed one, then it would be to solve an issue. If it didn't I would feel quite bad.

Thanks - I totally agree, it does not seem to matter if the problem is related to sludge, or if there is a sludge problem, unless you pay them £800+ it does not count, even if I was to hire a private plumber to powerflush, they said it would not matter as they did not do the flush. so it seems it does not matter to them if the system is crystal clear or not, if I did not pay them £800 for it - it did not happen.

Everytime I hear their advert of unlimited callouts, free boiler if they can't fix it, no parts or labour charges I don't know if I should laugh of cry - they say sludge before they even get to the boiler half the time!. i'm sure there are good plumbers at british gas, but seems they are driven to push sales rather than fixing anything. and you can bet nearly every system has some sludge, so its the perfect get out I guess.

 

[mickie]

empty the tank of air, see if water comes out of it, if it doesnt its ok and you can fill it back up with air..

undo the filling loop and make sure its not letting any water past with the valves turned off, if it does, thats no good, if it doesnt, ignore it..

turn the water off to the boiler, if the pressure stops going up, it'll be heat exchanger..

apart from that, the boiler should still work regardless of high pressures i'd have thought, so yeah it has a few problems

 

[jtsplumbing]

First cancel BG insurance, if you only want to cover boiler take out insurance with boiler maker, will work out cheeper, good old BG, used to be boiler over 10 years old ,you can-not get parts !! Now it seems to have gone over to `you need a power flush`
Could i ask how long have BG been looking after your boiler ? and what do they charge ??.

 

[gornsgorns]

So u flushed the system with a garden hose and not a powerflush machine with chemicals (which does work by the by). I'm unsure but I heard bg don't cover sludge and therefore problems that arise due to the sludge (sticking divertor valves/failing pumps/choked heat exchangers the list can be endless).

"If" that is written in their small print then I struggle to see how u can argue with them, but again that's only "if" the problems u are experiencing are caused by sludge. Its difficult to tell without seeing ur boiler for myself what's wrong.

A garden hose is no match for A proper power flush machine with the correct chemicals im afraid

Of course it is. I've found doing what he does is just as good if not better than a poweflush. Taking a radiator outside and flushing it through with a hosepipe under mains pressure is no worse than using a powerflush machine. This just sounds like the typical BG response of trying to get more money out of the customer!

 

[Mike Jackson]

I never use a powerflush machine on a combi boiler. What's the point when you've got a high pressure source at hand. I cut a drain off into the flow under the boiler. Stick a hose on this, open it, turn on the filling loop and wait until the water runs clear. Then isolate the boiler and repeat. When it runs clear this time shut off all rads bar one and wait for the water to run clear again,agitate the radiator (I use a vibracleanse but a rubber mallet will do) and wait 'til the water runs clear. Open the next rad, shut the first one and repeat. Once everything has run clean open all the rads up and the boiler isolating valves and just check it is still running clean. This will get the system just as clean if not cleaner than using a powerflush. I generally chuck a dose of cleaner in first and circulate this for a while to loosen the muck.

 

[dancinplumba]

i do like you mike except i put a filling loop tap on flow then i can swap hose and fill loop to flush both ways

 

[Mbear]

Of course it is. I've found doing what he does is just as good if not better than a poweflush. Taking a radiator outside and flushing it through with a hosepipe under mains pressure is no worse than using a powerflush machine. This just sounds like the typical BG response of trying to get more money out of the customer!

I'm speaking as an engineer with powerflushing experience, the machine pumping away with the chemicals will clear a 10mm choked heating pipe given the right amount of time is spent on it, I've seen it and done it 1st hand.Mains Water flushing will not do the same job. I'm not defending bg, I'm merely stating p/flushing a pipe/rad/boiler or even a cyl properly will produce better results than the DIY way. Fact

 

[swiftone75]

Thanks for replies. I will be trying your suggestions out over the next few days Mickie, and hopefully report back once I know more. I do have pretty high pressure water, and flushed very thoroughly, 12+ hours per radiator, boiler probably 4 times, 7 hours + each time. May not be a power flush, but it did clear out a lot.

My problem is I hit a brick wall with British gas, I’m sure power flushing is useful, but they have told me even if I hire a private plumber and have it power flushed, it would not matter as they did not do it - this is what frustrates me, the reality does not seem to matter, I could have the cleanest system in the world, but as I have not paid them £800 it does not count.

I want to try and hold them to their contract, if they fail to meet their obligations I will cancel, or look at possible legal action, as so far I feel ripped off, I paid for boiler cover, they happily took my money. and I have worked extremely hard to try and remove their excuse, I was hoping I could verify it was something they cannot blame sludge on – if its the heat exchanger they will blame sludge I’m sure. Can an expansion vessel that’s leaking be caused by invisible “sludge”?. I have no idea

I'm clearly no expert – but have been forced to learn because of British gas excuses, I just wish they would do their job so I didn't have to. they have been (on and off) “looking after” the boiler for a few years. I know sludge can cause problems, but not every problem, before they even get in the door. I'm sure they have good plumbers, but it seems they are using the small print to get out of nearly every job people pay insurance for – I imagine at the direction of British gas HQ.

It's just so misleading, I do not understand how they are getting away with it, there must be so many people paying for the peace of mind of having cover, like I did, only to find out they would have had just as much chance of getting their boiler fixed by taking out Oven insurance. I am Meant to be covered for a new boiler as well, if they cannot fix it, but its not that they can't fix it, its just that they won't, so I guess thats a get out of that one as well?.

Thanks again for help, hopefully I can narrow it down, and have some argument against the sludge line.

 

[aqualogic7]

tell bg if they do not repair the boiler. you will get an independent heating co to repair and take them to small clams court to recover costs. bg have done this before said parts are not available and you have to have a new boiler,independent heating co found parts and repaired boiler ,this was in dorking, maybe a last resort ,am trying to find info on this case

 

[jtsplumbing]

If they have been looking after you boiler for some time, why have they not been checking system and topping up with inhibitor ? thought this would be standerd practace, if they had been doing job properly it would not have got into this state. Your better of useing boiler maker or local engineer.

 

[swiftone75]

Hello All,

Thanks, I have not had cover constantly, but when they have come they have not done anything really, other than say they won't do anything, and I can either buy a new boiler from them, or buy a power flush from them. I will call them out again once I can ID the rough problem.

I have a bit more information I’m hoping someone can give me a clue to what could be wrong. The expansion vessel was drained of air and re-pressurized (did not help problem), there was some water on the valve, once fully drained of air, it was a bit damp but no large volume of water.

Symptoms are:

1.Boiler flame comes on, but instantly shuts off, this is followed by a moderate whistling sound that starts high pitched and goes down, for about 4 seconds. Seems to be the same for hot water or heating.

2.the expansion vessel had some small amount of water when draining it of air, when re-pressurizing (with a bike pump) there was a sound on every pump, like a dull clanking type noise.

3.boiler sometimes makes a whooshing/air like sound that increases, seems to happen more on hot water (when it does actually start)

4..Every now and then the no-gas light starts flashing, seems to happen at random.

5.sometimes it works for awhile, other times it cuts off, its an instant cut off, with a click, like the boiler is shutting itself off due to a saftey feature. Seems random when it works, more often than not it won't work.

6.Water pressure rises to about 3-4 bar, seems to auctally go down a bit when boiler is on, but this could just be the releif valve kicking in.
it is possible this symptom is water coming from the filling loop, I have not had time to verify this yet.

I'm guessing it could be the Expansion vessel? But I do not know if any of these symptoms points to a particular problem, finally if it is the expansion vessel, what are the chances this was broken due to sludge? Thanks