Clarification

[secret squirrel]

I would just like clarification on one point which was lost in my last thread "would you have helped?"

AS mad as it appears, am I correct in thinking that:

Anyone can pop down to a shed buy a boiler, fit and connect up to the gas and off they go, a gas safe fitter does not have to connect it to the gas, check the work. Providing that person is working on there own house.

 

[newbie1]

No that person even though it is there own house if there was a problem and there was a leak/explosion etc insurance would almost definatly not pay out as that person still has to be deemed to be a competent person to work on their own gas and would be highly unlikely to be able to prove competence
in their own house they can do what they want But if and when there is a problem could be legally liable and also when selling house will be unable to supply commissioning info for boiler

 

[secret squirrel]

Thanks Newbie,

I'm almost there, for ease of this post:

(I've no intention of doing this, just trying to get my head around a couple of things)

I go to B & Q buy a boiler fit it, connect it to the gas, pay someone whose is gas safe to check it (providing I can get someone etc).

The gas safe registered fitter is "only" liable for what he/she can see?

and has a legal get out (for want of a better expression) for hidden pipe work and the possible use of acidic flux etc. And possible leaks for pipe work the gas safe person has not got access to.

So. in effect the gas safe person would only be signing off my boiler,

E.g "your boiler is safe and fitted to manufacturers specs etc. but I have no responsibility for anything before the boiler or the pipe work after it"

I'm not trying to back someone into a corner just trying to get my head around this issue, if a gas safe chap goes and signs a boiler off and he's liable for everything then how do the "sheds" sell boilers to anyone but the trade. The risks seem too high for a gas safe operative to sign off work he/she hasn't completed from start to finish.

 

[Plouasne]

Two points

If you read what the health and safety say, about a "competent person", with regard to the gas safety, they state that the term a "competent person" would have to be tried in the courts of law, to be able to deem what a competent person is!

An old property with gas laid on and a gas cooker in place, provision for a gas boiler is there, the gas carcase is in black iron, buried in the walls and over site concrete, registered gas fitter carries out all the required tests, before fitting the boiler and central heating, is he liable for any subsequent failure of the gas service, or does he say sorry but a new service will have to be made to supply the boiler, and the cooker, at xx £ extra cost

 

[migoplumber]

now, when you walk into a property, you are totally liable for all gas work in that property that you are aware of.
obviously there is a gas meter. to properly do a gas test, you have to test from the meter and to isolation valve of all appliances that you are aware of.
the client may well still have a gas fire in the bedroom and could be aware that its not allowed now, but she loves it, so she dosnt tell you its there. you do your gas test with known appliances and it passes.
that night the old dear kills herself from co poisioning.
you are now asked about your gas test,

always, always document your test, state the appliances that both you and your client are aware of in the property and get a signature.

in the above case. woman dead, you did gas test, try to prove that the dead lady client, with an extremly rich son who is a solicitor lied to you about the appliances in the house.

guard your paperwork with your life, its your income. get everything signed.

 

[flat pack]

or the police may think you have alter the paper work and the son put you in prison
3sq meals a day a computer and a plumbing forum to speak toooooooo

 

[Puddle]

I feel another long post coming on........sorry

For clarification, no, legally, not everyone can pop down to a shed, buy a boiler and install it, even though he is working in his own house
To work on gas you have to be competent
In law competent means different things in different siduations, this is what causes confusion
To prove you are competent in gas takes two parts
The practical side, showing you can work with copper/iron pipework, can make sound joints; actually carry out any requires tests, able to do some wiring
Then the mental ability, you do not have to know every regulation or Infact many at all, you would not have to stand up in a court of law and answer 90 % of questions asked about regulations involved correctly, with regard to gas regulations, you just have to have the ability to show you are able to look through the regulations and apply regulations as required ,after all when doing works, you hit a section you are not sure about, you put kettle on, look up requirements and away you go(ring a bell, just like you do in your gas assessment for registration)

Forfill the above and yes you can carry out gas work in your own home….you are competent…off you go
Fail and you are deemed incompetent and probably a little incontinent wondering what is going to happen to you!
With regard Competent in law, they have found above details satisfactory to grade for gas work
However would the same levels of testing be Ok to prove compentcy for driving
First part yes, pratical test, get in car drive around all Ok second part would not be, the mental part would not be acceptable, you could not drive down the road and stop at every sign, open a book, check meaning or requirements and then pull off,then stop at the next sign therefore a memory test in required to be taken separately to prove compencey in driving,
Thus each profession and proposed action has different acceptable levels of compencey required with different requirements on physical and mental side
When you have finished works in your own home you could get a gas safe engineer to check it but that in itself could be deemed an acknowledgement that you do not believe you are competent, if you need someone to check works.
Another would say you are just being couscous but would a gas safe engineer get another gas safe engineer to check their works? think not!

With regard to a gas safe engineer signing off works done by another this is not allowed and should never be done under any circumstances, it is not for the gas safe engineer to say he will or will not, it is not allowed, full stop
This is were the house owner who installs their own gas equipment starts to become unstuck, he can not finish the paper trail as institutions do not accept this work although maybe legal, insurance companies will not cover, buyers will be advised to have boiler re-enstalled,mortgage and loan companies will not recognise works as a asset to property but a liability, reducing loans people can get to purchase or improve dwelling.
As stated before it is not the regulations and laws that stop people doing thinks it is the institutions

With regard to the gas engineer inspecting property, he is not liable for subsequent failure of the gas service, the inspection is a snap shot of the installation on the day and time inspected and if all appliances operation correctly and all visible pipework in good or seems to be in good order and sound, that is it, you can advise and make recommendations but that is it if all ok.
When I do a gas inspection I always insist on going in every room not just because of appliances may be there but to check any pipework in capped off correctly and check any dead legs, if not allowed write on report

 

[newbie1]

put simply
1/gas safe engineer for all gas related work
2/diy in own house can take the chance of prosecution /no insurance/death all to save the money of using an expert
3/dodgy gits illegal gas work then bung another dodgy git cash to in effect falsify the ducumentation
that is the plain and simple nuts and bolts of it
if you want to touch gas do the acs and for legality get insurance and bobs your uncle or be a dodger and risk prison if you cock it up for bth you and the doughnut who is taking the backhander

 

[secret squirrel]

Thanks everyone, I now have a handle on a few more bits.

The one thing I can't understand is how suppliers and sheds are allowed to sell boilers to anyone other than gas safe operatives. Still there excuse is "must be installed by a gas safe registered installer"

I'm sure theres another discussion there. Thanks all.

 

[unguided1]

so why does the benchmark book that is supplied with all boilers, in a box at the top say installers name address and details, and then underneath that another box with commisioning engineers details if different from installer.
just wondered as i was filling one out today.
Regards
Mike

 

[migoplumber]

benchmark is a european standard, and maybe in another country its allowed ?!?

 

[Plouasne]

so why does the benchmark book that is supplied with all boilers, in a box at the top say installers name address and details, and then underneath that another box with commisioning engineers details if different from installer.
just wondered as i was filling one out today.
Regards
Mike

I would say its because there are some companies like BG who have quite a few fitters on the books, and its to ensure that the companies name and address is recorded, and also the person who installed the appliance

benchmark is a european standard, and maybe in another country its allowed ?!?

Where I am all new gas appliances, unless a cooker where the gas supply is Butane and a single cylinder, must be tested and approved by a person with the appropriate qualifications, before the gas is either delivered (LPG) or the supply is connected, the installation can be either by an approved person, a non approved plumber, or another, the test fee's reflect the differences in the person who did the installation

An LPG installation is tested at 3bar, from the bulk tank to the first,stage regulator , for half an hour, then at working pressure to the individual controls to the appliances, natural gas 2 working pressure for 10mins to the controls to the appliances

A problem I see with the UK gas SI, is that it was drawn up by legal's in legalese, with "not withstanding, to the best of the availability, etc", and is a dogs breakfast, the only people who would win if any thing went to court would be the legals, where I am it states precisely what is allowed, and how its done, the Norms (like the british standards) are there to be obeyed, and its down to you if they are not, simple every body know where they stand

 

[johnp]

A lot of companies use commissioning engineers to commission the work done by the registered operatives.

 

[Mushybees]

A problem I see with the UK gas SI, is that it was drawn up by legal's in legalese, with "not withstanding, to the best of the availability, etc", and is a dogs breakfast, the only people who would win if any thing went to court would be the legals, where I am it states precisely what is allowed, and how its done, the Norms (like the british standards) are there to be obeyed, and its down to you if they are not, simple every body know where they stand

The gas regs are appalling for legalese. Passing the ACS exam is 70% a test of reading comprehension and 30% gas competence which I think is pathetic.

 

[david williams]

the law says you must be competant,when on the odd occasion these cases get to court ,the courts can not decide what competant means.as for gas safe engineer signing off someone elses work ,if you are only doing a landlords gas test once tested you are signing off someone elses work,you can not take up floor boards etc to check all pipes etc if it passes soundness test just to see what condition pipework is in,there are so many loopholes in this legistration,the only thing that does not fall through the holes is the money we constantly have to spend to prove we are competant

 

[Bernie2]

The selling of gas appliances to the general public is allowed. The reasons are obvious, if you never you would be creating a captive market. You can buy a plane easy enough but you can't fly it.

It may not be you squirrel. But say you wanted to become a millionaire, you could hold people to ransom with your charges, knowing they can't buy gas appliances anywhere else.

Also manufacturers would be over a barrel, its not free trade.

And what is to stop the manufacturers cutting all gas engineers out all together and selling direct using their own people to do it?

If you want to install for money you get declared competent by getting acs, insured and so on.

If you do it in your own home, you take the chance.

If safety is the prime object to GaSafe then DIY installers should be able to turn to them and get it checked.

In the electrical industry you can. If you install under Part P you can go to your council and for a fee they will send an inspector out and test it for you and give a certificate.

Stopping DIY in a persons own home is not going to happen so easily, so lets make it safe and make it easy to get their work checked. That's fair, making captured markets isn't.

 

[Plouasne]

To be honest, I think that its too late in the UK to do any thing (apart from have a revolution), about the regs situation, apart from pay up and pig about it

I have asked my son how it works in France, for an artisan Plumber/Electrician/Heating Engineer
He said that before you start out, you have to go on a course to learn about running a business, then register at the local chamber of "trades", once you have the registration number (which allows you to trade), you have to find an assurance company for the normal assurances, and the decennial assurance (big money at least £2k for this alone), then join the C A P E B
link: La CAPEB , which is like the small building trades union, for about £200 yr fees, he can get the required training he wants, via CAPEB, this got him his gas professional training, and for about £150 yr he can do gas work, and sign it off, also sign off others work once it has been tested and he is satisfied with the standard of work, the fees for testing another person work, depends on whether the person is a plumber, or just a diy person
Electrical work is slightly different, new work or where the supply has been disconnected needs an independent person to sign off the work, after inspection and testing
link: [DLMURL="http://www.consuel.com/attestations.htm"]vérifier installation électrique[/DLMURL] , the fees are about £90 for an inspection and test for a registered electrician, and about double that for another or diy'er
The real deterrent for bad work is the assurance (do bad work, and have a claim, assurance costs go up, and you might not get cover; no cover=no work)

Whilst there are "sheds" like B&Q etc in France, these tend to sell at between what an artisan can purchase the same material for and what a private person would pay at a trade out let for the same material, and for boilers they stipulate that for the guarantee to "kick in" in case of a claim, the boiler has to be installed or approved by a registered trades person who is qualified to do the work

Another thing that the trades persons in France do and that is form local groups to bulk up their purchasing power, I think that it cost my son about £10/15 month for this, and in return he gets between 10 and 20% extra of the costs of materials

Whilst the CAPEB, is for all building trades, and is associated with the EBC
link: E.B.C. - European Builders Confederation , I see that its only the Federation of Master Builders, who are associated with the EBC, in the UK, can I suggest that you collectively lobby your trade associations like the C I O P & H E, and others to join the EBC, and get your word in, otherwise you will be left out in the cold and picked off one by one, or form locally at first then nationally a "union for all building trades, self employed and small business companies"

 

[Bernie2]

Yes its problematic over here Plouasne.

The government introduced the gas regs requiring everybody to be registered and then gave the job to CORGI.

The colleges set the prices for acs not the people who it would effect, at the same time the government I think withdrew part funding of the colleges, so course prices went sky high.

I have no idea how much they really cost but I suppose a whole card of domestic including core safety, is probably something like £3000 for perhaps a fortnights or less acs testing. A university degree can cost less than £3000 for a whole years tuition.

So who set the acs prices?

And when has it been fair to charge gas fitters more to pass a few tests than it does to train a lawyer or architect who have the earning potential of minor millionaires and only have to pay it once not every five years.

Not only that, you have then to face up to GaSafe costs and include compulsory insurance costs. All of which the person paying has no input into.

Combined it must cost something like £3500 just to be able to do domestic gas work.

Is it any wonder some people take a chance?

If we want to stop cowboys we need to bring those prices down.

 

[david williams]

it has never been about safety it has allways been about money.