CO Detector in bathroom

[jonny5isalive]

Hi,

I first wanted to say how useful this site is and thank you to everyone involved. I have learned a lot from here.

I have a question. I have a customer with a boiler in a compartment in the bathroom. It is behind a door and fulfills the clearances for MIs and requires no ventilation. She wants a couple of CO detectors, one upstairs where the boiler is situated and one downstairs where the hob is situated.

It makes the most sense to put the upstairs CO detector where the gas user may be affected by CO at the time of use, ie in the bathroom. All battery CO detectors that I have looked into say not to install into a damp or humid environmet however and so next best thing is in the hall outside the bathroom. This means that if there is a fluing problem with the boiler then the CO will fill the bathroom and have to get past the shut door before activating the CO detector. There will also be a door between the user and the audible alarm although this shouldn't be much of a problem as it is one door. I thought that perhaps ensuring that there is a gap at the top of the door may be the best option but would like to put it out there a and see if anyone know of any solutions that protect the user better from a CO problem?

The boiler is a Worcester 28i Junior which required a fan change at service , PRV had been run in pushfit plastic and was rerun in copper.Top and bottom seals on the combustion chamber were replaced. The seals have been checked with an FGA around the case.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Jon

 

[kay-jay]

Hi,

I first wanted to say how useful this site is and thank you to everyone involved. I have learned a lot from here.

I have a question. I have a customer with a boiler in a compartment in the bathroom. It is behind a door and fulfills the clearances for MIs and requires no ventilation. She wants a couple of CO detectors, one upstairs where the boiler is situated and one downstairs where the hob is situated.

It makes the most sense to put the upstairs CO detector where the gas user may be affected by CO at the time of use, ie in the bathroom. All battery CO detectors that I have looked into say not to install into a damp or humid environmet however and so next best thing is in the hall outside the bathroom. This means that if there is a fluing problem with the boiler then the CO will fill the bathroom and have to get past the shut door before activating the CO detector. There will also be a door between the user and the audible alarm although this shouldn't be much of a problem as it is one door. I thought that perhaps ensuring that there is a gap at the top of the door may be the best option but would like to put it out there a and see if anyone know of any solutions that protect the user better from a CO problem?

The boiler is a Worcester 28i Junior which required a fan change at service , PRV had been run in pushfit plastic and was rerun in copper.Top and bottom seals on the combustion chamber were replaced. The seals have been checked with an FGA around the case.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Jon

Place it in the compartment with the boiler?

 

[jonny5isalive]

Hi, Thanks for the suggestion. MIs want the detector 2 metres away from the fuel burning appliance on one and 1 metre away on a couple of others. To minimise false alarms I suppose, so I could do and see how it fairs as it's probably the safest. Compartment gives probably 40cm max that the CO detector will be from the boiler. The compartment doesn't have ventilation and so will still be prone to humid conditions in part I would have thought.

Thanks
Jon

 

[kirkgas]

Hi, Thanks for the suggestion. MIs want the detector 2 metres away from the fuel burning appliance on one and 1 metre away on a couple of others. To minimise false alarms I suppose, so I could do and see how it fairs as it's probably the safest. Compartment gives probably 40cm max that the CO detector will be from the boiler. The compartment doesn't have ventilation and so will still be prone to humid conditions in part I would have thought.

Thanks
Jon

You are right about minimum distance to stop,false alarms, but that's for cookers and open flued appliances where you sometimes get a reading, on a room sealed appliance you should never have any POC's in the room so sit it right on top of the boiler next to the flue bend, if it ever goes off you have an ID situation as the flue has split and you want to know about it right away

 

[jonny5isalive]

Thanks seems obvious now you put it like that. Cheers jon

 

[jonny5isalive]

I like the using your brain for logic approach rather than just blindly following the instructions irrespective of if theyre relative. They want the boiler serviced yearly so i can check the detector then as well.

Thanks again for the help with tutorials etc. was a godsend.

Cheers jon

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Kirk is giving the right advise as always.

I just thought you might be interested to know that reason for the 1-2 metre distance away on the ceiling location for an open flued appliance such as a gas fire is because in tests they found that the CO came out like this -as if it was thrown out from the appliance and rises on warm air current.
If there was a spillage this is the first location that would get enough exposure - a high concentration - to trigger an alarm. Obviously over time the CO spreads in all directions.
There are other reasons to have a CO alarm at eye view - this would be more suitable for rooms that do not actually have an appliance in them.

 

[kirkgas]

I've also got a sensor that monitors CO reading over a set time which has a USB end and can be downloaded onto computer to show all readings, it's at home and I'm not but if I remember next week, or if someone reminds me I will post a pic of it

 

[jonny5isalive]

Thanks tara. Good to know. Im glad its based on research.

Kirkgas what sort of time frame are you talking about for readings. Can it be left in a customers house and anslysed at a later date or is it for personal use?

My anton does room detection but dont think it will do a report or printout which is s shame

Cheers jon

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

This does almost what kirkgas is describing.
Records reading over a 4 week period but not downloadable.
This is the one I take on holiday with me and costs a little over £20, I think.
Carbon monoxide alarm - digital 7 year life | FireAngel

 

[jonny5isalive]

Thanks that looks good. Ive mostly been using the honeywell ones so far . I like the idea of a log. Just out of interest have you seen much fluctuation in the readings over the four weeks ?

 

[kirkgas]

Thanks tara. Good to know. Im glad its based on research.

Kirkgas what sort of time frame are you talking about for readings. Can it be left in a customers house and anslysed at a later date or is it for personal use?

My anton does room detection but dont think it will do a report or printout which is s shame

Cheers jon

I think you can set it to take a reading at any set time, say every 5'minutes, or once per hr on per day etc, it's the size of a memory stick and has sub end to go straight into computer

 

[kirkgas]

This does almost what kirkgas is describing.
Records reading over a 4 week period but not downloadable.
This is the one I take on holiday with me and costs a little over £20, I think.
Carbon monoxide alarm - digital 7 year life | FireAngel

Haha I've been pulled a few times going through customs because the co alarm shows up on x ray, until,we bought our own place I took one to every hotel and apartment

 

[kirkgas]

Here is the CO data logger I have, and a sample of the download, it can be set to take a reading every 10seconds up to once per hour

 

[jonny5isalive]

That looks great. Definately appeals to my geeky side. Fairly pricy tho. Got one like Mrs Tara Plumbing has before I saw this and took it on holiday. Got max of 26ppm but had it right next to cooker in our hippy bus just to see how the readings were. Cut and capped and ate out for the week. Didn't get a continuous graph on the screenwhich was a shame but then haven't looked how to.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

That looks great. Definately appeals to my geeky side. Fairly pricy tho. Got one like Mrs Tara Plumbing has before I saw this and took it on holiday. Got max of 26ppm but had it right next to cooker in our hippy bus just to see how the readings were. Cut and capped and ate out for the week. Didn't get a continuous graph on the screenwhich was a shame but then haven't looked how to.

26ppm is not enough to trigger the alarm.
I would think it is OK to use a cooker in a well ventilated bus with a CO alarm with those kind of readings. So long as the oven is on for a reasonable time not 24 hours and you got windows/door open. Some CO spillage is normal from cooking appliances - one of the reasons ovens must not be used for heating a home.

 

[jonny5isalive]

Was joking about iding the cooker. Just made sure there was ventilation as you say. Was surprised at the levels tho.

 

[THEJoeb]

Hi,

I would place the detector around 150mm from the top (ceiling) of the cupboard. should any CO be released it will rise to the top of the cupboard at first due to thermal current (heat of POC), if you place it on top of the boiler and say the top of the boiler is lower than head height, a dangerous amount of CO could have built up at head height. So when the user opens the cupboard, say to get a towel out then they could potentially breathe in the CO before the detector had gone off.

Hope it helps

 

[kirkgas]

Hi,

I would place the detector around 150mm from the top (ceiling) of the cupboard. should any CO be released it will rise to the top of the cupboard at first due to thermal current (heat of POC), if you place it on top of the boiler and say the top of the boiler is lower than head height, a dangerous amount of CO could have built up at head height. So when the user opens the cupboard, say to get a towel out then they could potentially breathe in the CO before the detector had gone off.

Hope it helps

If there is CO leaking out of the boiler inside a cupboard it will set the alarm off, the chance of the CO not getting to the alarm but rushing out the open cupboard to poison the person just doesn't seem a realistic scenario to me, surely leaking CO will set the alarm off because the cupboard door is closed?

 

[THEJoeb]

So many factors affect CO production and the PPM in a specific volume that we cannot rule out any scenario,

The reason CO alarms are placed high up in a room/compartment is so the alarm goes off before any CO above acceptable limits (Read: World Health Organisation Guidance and BS967) reaches areas where it is likely to be inhaled, simply advising to place on top of the appliance as someone did earlier, is not best practice. The alarm is most likely to alert the user at an earlier time when placed at a higher point in the room/compartment containing the appliance/flue than placed on top of the appliance/flue, (where the top of the appliance is not the highest point and manufacturers instructions cannot be adhered to). we do not know how well ventilated or what size the compartment is (people have differing ideas on what constitutes a compartment, but that is another discussion).

So best practice is to place a detector at the point it is most likely to alert the people it needs to, as early as possible. That was the point I was trying to make.

There is a chance of CO building up inside the cupboard to an unacceptable level before the alarm placed on top of a boiler say at waist height was triggered,

CO when produced by combustion will rise to the top of a room/compartment, spread across then bit by bit fill the space top to bottom. depending on room/compartment volume, amount of CO production, ventilation and a persons health condition this could be a harmful dose of CO.

Hope this further explains my earlier post.

In the absence of manufacturers instructions, CO alarms should be preferably 1500mm away from an appliance, 150mm from ceiling height, away from varying temperatures (too hot/cold), away from sources of draughts (windows/doors/vents) and if the alarm has lights/display it should be easily visible.

Cheers

 

[THEJoeb]

Just noticed it should be BS7967