Commercial unit, huge meter and normal G4 meter?

[theanalyst]

ok guys
Was working in a commercial premises the other day, they are having new radiators in all of the offices and repiped etc.

It is a 37kW combi running it as its not a big unit.

Now the question!! The premises owner had one of those 'could you just do me a favour' questions... he wanted a gas pipe cutting out and capping off that used to feed a gas dryer.

Now, the premises has a HUGE meter in the loftspace upstairs that services all of the units on the industrial estate, and then this actual unit has a sub meter (G4 iirc) in situ downstairs with its own ECV etc.

Im not certified for commercial and theres no test nipple on the sub meter?? (rather a manky load of compression fitting in fact...

Where do I stand with regards to what Im 'allowed to do' by law?
I told the customer I would have to look into it another time as we didnt have time to do it on the day anyway, but it got me thinking.

Either I fit a test nipple to the sub meter pipework or I cant in fact test the gas?!!! this meter is supplied at low pressure so is it covered by non commercial acs? thanks

 

[Dannypipe]

I don't know the answer to this question, but will be very interesting to hear what some of the lads say. I'd like to get my commercial ticket, but heard it's a 3 week course, with a week on purging alone.

Is this true.

My guess is, as it's commercial premises, you might not be covered for any of it, but that is a total guess. I'll check back later to see what certain people have said.

Kirkgas and Gasman are probably going to have an opinion.

 

[JamesC]

As your working on pipework off the sub meter then no probs. Your working off the pipe work from that meter not the big one that serves all of them.
However as it hasn't got a test nipple then you could air test the pipe work instead, like you would on a new build site before the meter is fitted.

Forgot to say make sure your still in domestic installation volume though.

 

[Darrenm]

As your working on pipework off the sub meter then no probs. Your working off the pipe work from that meter not the big one that serves all of them.
However as it hasn't got a test nipple then you could air test the pipe work instead, like you would on a new build site before the meter is fitted.

The type of location determines the competancies required: the location is a commercial setting therefore,to carry out any work you should have the relavent commercial quals. Currently,taking mine..approx 9 days,including test/purge.

 

[JamesC]

The type of location determines the competancies required: the location is a commercial setting therefore,to carry out any work you should have the relavent commercial quals. Currently,taking mine..approx 9 days,including test/purge.

So by your reckoning, you cant put a domestic boiler off a G4 meter in a newsagent for example as that is a commercial premise.

Dont think so.

Things go commercial when you exceed the domestic installation volume of 35 litres. It has nothing to do with the location of what your working on.

 

[Darrenm]

[The defination of a commercial setting can be difficult in certain instances..the volume you mention..which standard have you take that from. The important factor is the location/other conditions..ie you could have a 55 kw boiler in a plant room on 35mm pipe yet still require a commercial ticket to work on it. The news agent...erm thats a good example to use..if the meter was under u16 and the pipework not over 35mm,then yes your domestic qualifications are suitable.

 

[Dannypipe]

The type of location determines the competancies required: the location is a commercial setting therefore,to carry out any work you should have the relavent commercial quals. Currently,taking mine..approx 9 days,including test/purge.

Where you doing it Darren and how much is it setting you back? Hope you don't mind, just thinking of doing it myself.

Just renewed ACS and a tutor put me off saying it's gonna take me 3 weeks and cost an arm and leg. Funnily enough they don't do it at my college (which shall remain nameless until I've finished all my appliances next week!!!).

 

[Darrenm]

Where you doing it Darren and how much is it setting you back? Hope you don't mind, just thinking of doing it myself.

Just renewed ACS and a tutor put me off saying it's gonna take me 3 weeks and cost an arm and leg. Funnily enough they don't do it at my college (which shall remain nameless until I've finished all my appliances next week!!!).

Hi,
The course is costing £1100 + Vat. This seems to be very competative and includes CODNC01,1CPN1,TPCP1A,C1GA1,CORT1,CDGA1.There is no standard between the training centres in terms of time..some allow an additional period for would be candidates to familarise themselves with the content.Especially,if they have had no commercial experiance.
Personally,have found certain aspects difficult for this reason.But,as with any re-assement have learnt new information and re-enforced the old.
I would advise you to take the dedicated commercial core ,rather than the conversion route..offers distinct advantages.
ps..whats your view on my last post?

Hi,
The course is costing £1100 + Vat. This seems to be very competative and includes CODNC01,1CPN1,TPCP1A,C1GA1,CORT1,CDGA1.There is no standard between the training centres in terms of time..some allow an additional period for would be candidates to familarise themselves with the content.Especially,if they have had no commercial experiance.
Personally,have found certain aspects difficult for this reason.But,as with any re-assement have learnt new information and re-enforced the old.
I would advise you to take the dedicated commercial core ,rather than the conversion route..offers distinct advantages.
ps..whats your view on my last post?

ps2. just on for the first time..sorry if this was the slow way of responding!

 

[tamz]

ps..whats your view on my last post?

Differentiating between commercial and domestic is always a hard one.
Assuming you have full domestic tickets.

Start at the start.

Domestic, you can work on up to 70 kw blr.
Who makes one as a domestic?
No one.
Anything above around 42, the manu's state as commercial.
That rules that one out.

Cascade 2 30's instead

2 x 30 kw boiler to be fitted in a shop, U40 meter.
You can't fit as it is a U40 and no valved connection.

1 x 30kw boiler to be fitted in a shop on U16,
20 m 1/14" pipe from meter to boiler position.
You can fit it.
U16 meter and pipework volume = less than 0.035m3. Pipe size 1 1/4"

3 x 30 kw cascaded boilers to be fitted in office block, U100 meter.
2" valved connection from main. 2" supply pipe runs 20 metres from valve to boiler.
You can't fit because although it is a domestic boiler, and has a valved connection off the main, the pipe size is above 1 1/14" (35mm new money) and volume above 0.035m3.
Work around. Reduce the 2" and fit smaller pipes reducing to 3/4" to get the volume from valve to boilers below 0.035m3

Fit a 30kw boiler to a 15m valved 10m 1" pipe in a factory Supplied through an RG 16000 rotary.
No problem.

There are many examples and sometimes it is not easy to work around and is open to interpretation, but the main things are
Boiler below 70kw and classed as DOMESTIC (most above 42 will be classed as commercial.)
Working from a valved connection.
IV below 0.035m3
Pipe size 1 1/4" (35mm) max

No doubt if i have missed a bit (which i probably have) Kirk will straighten me out It is his job nowadays

 

[arfurdaley]

when deciding between commercial and domestic you have to take into consideration the following

Heat Input of the appliance
Pipe size
Installation volume
Meter size

as tamz says, depending on the installation there may be workarounds and is open to interpretation

 

[Dannypipe]

Hi,
The course is costing £1100 + Vat. This seems to be very competative and includes CODNC01,1CPN1,TPCP1A,C1GA1,CORT1,CDGA1.There is no standard between the training centres in terms of time..some allow an additional period for would be candidates to familarise themselves with the content.Especially,if they have had no commercial experiance.
Personally,have found certain aspects difficult for this reason.But,as with any re-assement have learnt new information and re-enforced the old.
I would advise you to take the dedicated commercial core ,rather than the conversion route..offers distinct advantages.
ps..whats your view on my last post?

Many thanks Darren, interesting and food for thought. My mrs will kill me when I tell her I'm spending more money on training but I'm sure eventually it will pay for itself. Weird that you don't suggest the conversion route. Probably as true commercial gas work is so diverse, complicated and different from average domestic work.

My view on your post, I think it's been covered by guys far more experienced than me. I would have thought that as you are working from a G4, with it's own ECV, with a 37kw boiler...you'd be ok.

From the posts though it seems there is a devision of opinion and I'm waiting for Kirkgas's post. He's a tutor and we all know that they know everything!!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Many thanks Darren, interesting and food for thought. My mrs will kill me when I tell her I'm spending more money on training but I'm sure eventually it will pay for itself. Weird that you don't suggest the conversion route. Probably as true commercial gas work is so diverse, complicated and different from average domestic work.

My view on your post, I think it's been covered by guys far more experienced than me. I would have thought that as you are working from a G4, with it's own ECV, with a 37kw boiler...you'd be ok.

From the posts though it seems there is a devision of opinion and I'm waiting for Kirkgas's post. He's a tutor and we all know that they know everything!!

just seen this you would be ok under these circumstances to carry out the work obviously you cant touch the commercial side under these circumstances,if you did not have a secondary meter you could "back test" from the appliance inlet,kirk will elaborate the exact regs further

 

[stevetheplumber]

just seen this you would be ok under these circumstances to carry out the work obviously you cant touch the commercial side under these circumstances,if you did not have a secondary meter you could "back test" from the appliance inlet,kirk will elaborate the exact regs further

i think the klingons got him

 

[jmsgas]

would he be allowed if he had his met 4?

 

[tamz]

Met4 is only a metering qual and allows the fitting and exchange of meters up to U40.

To work on bigger pipework you would need ICPN1 for fitting pipework and TPCP1 (or TPCP1a) for testing, purge and commision.

 

[jmsgas]

hi tamz thanks for the help just setting up on my own got to kit my self out with all the things I'll need instead of having it all supplied for me so if you can think of any thing else please let me know



cheers jmsgas

 

[migoplumber]

to upgrade from domestic to commercial can be done in 5days if you know your stuff, some people take a little more.
dont attempt to put a test nipple in the pipework - or indeed touch it!
its all about the soundness testing afterwards. a test nipple on a large instalation connected to your manometer would reveal very little. you could have an open 15mm pipe end pouring gas out and still wouldnt register a drop after 2hours !!
ige/up/10 is the good one to get a hold off and read through before you start your gas upgrade (which isnt too dificult anyway) go for it.