confined spaces

[migoplumber]

this subject has just been brought up at my works. as a result of this, we have had to postpone a job !! (working in a duct in a school)
half the firm has now had confined space training - with the other half doing it next week.

i'd like to know who works alone, if they do work alone do they do boiler services, and if so do they know how they are working against hse legislation, and whats required to allow them to do this.

this goes for self employed and and employees/managers alike

as an after thought - if you do know what im talking about - what loopholes have you found in law to get around this.

our boiler service's have just gone up from 40 to approx 400 quid - just for a service !!

thanks for your time

 

[dontknowitall]

Apart from the ladder rules I treat HSE stuff with a pinch of salt, especially after learning that what defines as working at height is any height where you could fall (e.g. a kerb by the road is classed as a height).

Another I came across was one hand for the ladder and one for your work. They quietly dropped this after learning that plasterers could never do a ceiling unless it was within reach of the floor.

I suspect that commercial working is very different to domestic work on the HSE side but if we all applied the rules to the letter no construction work would ever get done in this country.

It seems to me that most rules are made for the one or two idiots who've injured themselves due to a complete helping of stupidity and total lack of common sense.

Must jump off my high horse (with safety helmet of course and taking into account the moisture of the ground and a possible slippery surface and a rope around my waist in case I've misjudged the height and having contacted the meterological office for wind conditions ...)

Must admit, I had no idea there were rules about working in confined spaces.

 

[migoplumber]

i agree totally with you knowitall - however out contracts are all government body based, and we have to follow the proper rules. i cant believe we or anyone else has been pulled on this before - and how mant people a year a killed by not following these regs. ( average 1 a month - more than co poisoning ( and not given publicity to boot ))
what would you define as a confined space. (not a test)
i still have not done the training, just feedback from my guys !!

 

[Puddle]

I usually get round Hse regs by ignoring them
No doubt I need a fire watcher,with four different types of fire extinguisher ,man of a radio,tuned in to my radio,radio two and a gas safe adviser and some one holding a rope round me so they can pull me out if I go over the charged time allowance,then will need someone by the flue outside just incase someone wee,s down the flue when I am working on boiler and drowns me,then someone to put ballards round work area and make sure no one enters it,then safety officer to make sure I am waring correct safety equiptment
But just incase I am wrong ,what we talking about and whats the loop hole I can use to keep me out of prison

ps loop hole presume requires correct barriers and signage,with another person in a lime green waste jacket standing by the side of it

How many extra people are injured or killed a year because of these regs,after all if there is an accident in a area ,there are five times as many people there standing doing their h+s bit

 

[migoplumber]

a confined space is just about all places us plumbers go.
an easy definite definition is a place with only one way in or out and then a choice of 5 other boxes to tick. basically a boiler in a room 10 miles wide with a gas pipe in it is a confined space. a room 10 miles wide with a waste 22mm waste pipe running through it with only one door is a confined space - and so on.
if working in a confined space, rules are two people inside confined space with air breathing monitoring apparatus and one outside with air breathing monitoring apparatus - all with appropriate confined space training and first aid training, including resucitation skills.
thats 3 people (28 quid an hour), with 200 pound a time equipment/hour
as most of our work is in boiler rooms - i need a loophole, such as "how big does the second door have to be" or "define a door"
ideas?

 

[dontknowitall]

Does 4.1 cover it for you?

If the boiler is in a confined space then it can't be serviced (e.g. safe to use for another year) ...

From the HSE website (Statutory Instrument 1997 No. 1713)

Work in confined spaces
4. - (1) No person at work shall enter a confined space to carry out work for any purpose unless it is not reasonably practicable to achieve that purpose without such entry.

(2) Without prejudice to paragraph (1) above, so far as is reasonably practicable, no person at work shall enter or carry out any work in or (other than as a result of an emergency) leave a confined space otherwise than in accordance with a system of work which, in relation to any relevant specified risks, renders that work safe and without risks to health.

 

[stevetheplumber]

your all getting confused by the title health and safety its should be called buck stopping
the whole idea of health and saftey is to ensure the buck stops at as lower position in the company as posible they give you as many rules as they can knowing if the worst happens youl almost certainly be in breech of one which makes it your fault
also a great way of sacking people when workforce needs trimming i heard of a guy getting sacked as he didnt have a spare battery for his wire detector probably not his first infringement b

 

[REDSAW]

does that count if there was a cat flap in place?.

its all baallshut in m.h.o to create jobs for nerds from uni' who dont know what a spanner is apart from the guy on the next desk. they put their expectations to the test by saying 'oh a ladder, i dont doo ladders nor should you - 6' max'.
the best bit is about employee protection from dangerous jobsgiven by employers.

thing is building works now cost a fortune to achieve whats the percentage of spanners wages on the job?.

can you immagine h.s.e. building the pyramids, the guys whould have bogged of 100 years after starting. sod that for a lark!.

 

[justlead1]

Hi. You may well find that a manager on one of your site has just gone a course and opened a can of worms. Interpretation of the law is the key. With regard to confined space entry, risk assessment, procedures lead to method statements being drawn up. As the work is repetitive, each boiler house/plant room will have is own safety procedures. It may mean permanent monitoring devices measuring air quality be fitted. Or portable units must be used by operatives, and in some cases breathing apparatus and spark proof tools must be used. Can be as simple as ventilating by wedging a door open whilst working. All the utility industries address this risk and are a good source for info. Although expensive to implement, it reduces the risk of competition. Good Luck

 

[migoplumber]

oh just lead your so right. our competition has just been reduced to zero. i'm the manager and have been talking to the hse directly after concerns before starting a job, that i wasnt happy with!
unfortunately fixed monitoring equipment is not allowed - it has to be portable and attached to you ! if there is only one door into the plant room the the rules stated in my previous post applies, wedged open or otherwise
was just hoping for another company/manager that has done this for some form of cheat - all though after todays hse consultations, i dont think there is one.
on the plus side for all you employees, id suggest a good read on the matter, when you do die in a confined space your missus will get bucket loads !!

thanks all for input

 

[oldplumber]

what hse do our armed forces follow: dont get in the way of bullets or the rnli : dont go to sea in rough weather, it would seem someone has to much time on their hands, remember the golden rule"Rules are there for idiots to follow and for wise men to use" simplessss

 

[helpsy]

what hse do our armed forces follow: dont get in the way of bullets or the rnli : dont go to sea in rough weather, it would seem someone has to much time on their hands, remember the golden rule"Rules are there for idiots to follow and for wise men to use" simplessss

Did various courses in construction and one of them was a slinger/signaller course for lifting and it said that armed forces were exempt from rules (I guess you wouldn't be checking paperwork or physical condition of equipment if you were getting your backside shot off, probably the last thing on your mind!!!)
Did confined space course and they showed a video of a man entering a chamber with no meter or breathing equipment(it was old man Boswell from the 80's show Bread), he collapsed in the bottom, then his mate climbed in to get him etc, etc before long there was 3 bodies in the bottom of the chamber.Thought....Always carry a canary!!!!

 

[jpm]

I've been in a loft today,and will be under a suspended floor tomorrow.Domestic only you do what it takes I have2 fire extinguishers in the van,which I never take out,wet rag on the odd joist is my gambit when in a loft or compression if needed,Confined spaces,ha,does a kitchen cupboard class as one?

 

[REDSAW]

not if its got a cat flap

 

[helpsy]

One of the main criteria of a confined space is suitability of access or egress.
My old mans bathroom becomes a confined space after he's been in there.PHEW!!!!LOL

 

[REDSAW]

One of the main criteria of a confined space is suitability of access or egress.
My old mans bathroom becomes a confined space after he's been in there.PHEW!!!!LOL

must be the crap flap

 

[mzuk04]

When it comes to confined spaces theres no real way around it.
Dont forget your Method and Risk Assessments