Copper CH /water pipes in concrete floor/walls

[Matt69]

Could anyone point me in the right direction. I had a complete plumbing install at a property I was renovating, the CH and plumbing was commissioned in Oct 20. Over the last 2 weeks we noticed the boiler (ATAG Combi) losing pressure and requiring refilling, this became more frequent, most recently about 4 times per day (from 0.0 bar). ATAG have checked the boiler and all was well. We have since noticed signs of water damage around the ground floor skirting and signs of water coming through the click flooring. Having read many of the forums on here, I believe it is highly likely that the copper piping in the walls and floor that was protected with a hessian sleeve has probably failed in multiple places. The plumber who installed and commissioned the system has stated that he is not responsible - clearly I disagree, but I'm struggling to find any building regulations or other legislation that details the requirements when installing copper CH or water pipes in concrete. Any advice gratefully received.

 

[Ben-gee]

Is it new pipework in new concrete?
Or is any of the pipework pre-existing?

 

[Vee]

Absolute minimum in my view would be to use plastic wrapped copper, if you‘d argue it’s inside the living space. Hessian wrap (I call it Fuzzy felt) is wholly and totally inadequate to bury pipes in concrete with, with what is known about the consequences. Sadly hessian wrap is a remnant from a past century that is still commonly in use. All new pipework should be insulated in modern foam insulation or fitted with a channel within the concrete floor. In addition for longer length expansion will need to considered which can cause fractures.

Sadly due to the expense, lack of enforcement or knowledge the methods as stated in the regulations and guides are all too often not adhered to.

(https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/697629/L1B_secure-1.pdf

Paragraph 4.24

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/697525/DBSCG_secure.pdf

Page 20

https://yorkshirecopper.com/wp-content/uploads/Technical-Guide-full-issue-02_14_Really2.pdf

Section 3.1.2

 

[Matt69]

Is it new pipework in new concrete?
Or is any of the pipework pre-existing?

The original concrete floor and block walls were channelled out, new pipes laid and back-filled with cement, the domestic water in the walls doesn't have the hessian.

 

[Matt69]

Absolute minimum in my view would be to use plastic wrapped copper, if you‘d argue it’s inside the living space. Hessian wrap (I call it Fuzzy felt) is wholly and totally inadequate to bury pipes in concrete with, with what is known about the consequences. Sadly hessian wrap is a remnant from a past century that is still commonly in use. All new pipework should be insulated in modern foam insulation or fitted with a channel within the concrete floor. In addition for longer length expansion will need to considered which can cause fractures.

Sadly due to the expense, lack of enforcement or knowledge the methods as stated in the regulations and guides are all too often not adhered to.

(https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/697629/L1B_secure-1.pdf

Paragraph 4.24

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../attachment_data/file/697525/DBSCG_secure.pdf

Page 20

https://yorkshirecopper.com/wp-content/uploads/Technical-Guide-full-issue-02_14_Really2.pdf

Section 3.1.2

Thanks for the links, exactly what I needed. This run of pipe (see picture attached) is approx 6m so in the recent cold spell could have expanded by 6mm (or tried to), I guess that could account for such a significant loss of water?

 

[Scott_D]

I wouldnt have thought cement would corrode copper in just 4 months.
Any external drain offs?
How big is the heating system?
You could hire/buy a thermal imaging camera of employ a leak detection company to find the issue.

 

[Matt69]

I wouldnt have thought cement would corrode copper in just 4 months.
Any external drain offs?
How big is the heating system?
You could hire/buy a thermal imaging camera of employ a leak detection company to find the issue.

I had called a leak detection company and he has just been, one or two of the joints have failed in the pipework, digging starts Monday! Many thanks

 

[Scott_D]

Let us know what caused the leak.
Always good to see problems and solutions