Don't sent your granny to Plumb Center

[BrianL]

My granny phoned me to say her boiler wasnt working, I had a look, it turned out to be her thermocouple, so because she never had any heat and I had no spares I asked her to pop into Plumb Center the next morning and I would replace it when i got home from work.

The guy at the shop wouldnt sell her it saying she could be a bogus Gas fitter, 76 years old with a purple rince, she tried to explian to the guy that i couldnt get to the shop untill the weekend so he said you will have to wait then to get it.

Hmmmmmmmm let me think old lady, winter no heat. Come on Mr Plumb Center use a spot off common

 

[sonray ltd]

they won't sell to you either if you can't prove your corgi reg.
which is the best thing they ever done to stop all the diy gas cowboys.

now who needs a spot of common.

 

[BrianL]

LOL you I think, for not asking if I was Corgi registered. Iam a corgi registered gas installer only for 18 years though.

 

[sonray ltd]

then you should know plumbcentre won't sell to anyone.
best idea for yrs.

 

[BrianL]

The point I was making was an old lady no heat, winter and a little common, you wouldnt get the police searching an old lady in the London underground for bombs

 

[Mike Jackson]

How did the guy at the counter Know that she wasn't going to get her next door neighbour to fit it for her? Well done plumb center for not selling safety critical gas spares to a non registered person.

Mike

 

[sonray ltd]

she could of been buying it for a builder, or her husband to fit they've covered their bum so then no come backs.

 

[BrianL]

Funny thing was she went to a differnet part of town and got it from another HRPC, and the guy was quite happy to do it, no questions asked.

You've got to remember its not illegal to buy gas spares.

Iam self emplyed and sometimes have to work away from town, if my wife or apprentice are near whats wrong with them picking up my spares like shes done for years.

Its just another half hearted attempt to stop unqualified installers doing there thing.

I can pop into B&Q and pick up a boiler or just order stuff over the internet.

I think you guys have all missed my point really.

 

[sonray ltd]

>You've got to remember its not illegal to buy gas spares.


its going that way even screwfix are starting to get their head screwed on


its not illegal to buy alot of things but if you get found to be using them it is.

sheds are one of the worst offenders for selling gas parts, electrical parts etc.

it all comes down to the right to sell act.

 

[Dave]

I have edited a couple posts here lads......lets keep this constructive and not insulting...to others..

please remember this forum is viewed by the public as well....

thanks ..

 

[MickW]

I'm not sure Plumb Center acting alone is doing any good anyway. Anyone wanting to do illegal gas work will just go somewhere else.

We all know that there are plenty of other merchants/sheds willing to sell to anybody and at the same or similar price to that offered to the trade.

If it were illegal to sell gas related products to anyone other than a CORGI registered installer, that would be a different matter and would have my support.

In relation to the original post, if Brian were a regular customer of mine AND he gave us a ring to let us know his gran was coming in, I would sell her the part.

 

[BrianL]

I think were just banging our heads against a big giant brick wall here, the government have tried for years to stop shops selling **** and drink to underage kids and it dosent work. So I'm not holding my breath.

 

[marshr02]

I'm not CORGI qualified. I can see how restricting 'gas' parts to CORGI people will reduce unregistered gas work - but it seems very restrictive if procurement of spares can only be carried out by the 'highly qualified' CORGI person rather than the apprentice, or the British Standard Granny?

Also there is a fine line between regulating high standards, such as CORGI & Electrical Part P and restrictive practices;

My understanding of the history of the various trade merchants, was general members of the public were not allowed to use the merchants. This ensured a cosy relationship between trades and suppliers - with the customer unaware of the mark up being applied to materials. The general public being denied the prices the trade paid - thus making DIY uneconomic. See "Housebuilders Bible" for this explanation.

The boom in DIY can lead to lower standards and conversely the boom in restrictive practices can lead to non-competive prices to customers. Maybe this is why I'm often quoted circa £2k for a straight combi swap when I know the boiler is £600 from Plumb Center and it's a day work, with CORGI subs at circa £400 pa.

In this example my opinion to throw into the mix is that Plumb Center is aiming to return to previous era's of selective supply to collude with tradesmen to keep prices high.

 

[Deleted member 2053]

I presume then that when you go to the supermarket you expect them to sell you stuff at cost? Or do you go to the wholesalers and expect stuff at the price they get it from the manufacturers? My mark up, which is never huge, just about covers the cost (investment and fuel) of carrying a mass of stuff around on the van so I don't have to charge customers for a trip to the suppliers every time I do a job. Or perhaps you think we should run these errands in our own time??

 

[marshr02]

Not looking to offend anyone -let me clarify my position. I'm lucky to work in a salaried job, I know from mates that working for yourself is hard work. Often it's hard for members of the public to appreciate the work behind the scenes before arriving on site - they just see the 4 hours or so you spend in their house. Also if CORGI registered then there are other overheads, such as subs in addition to test gear, van, insurance, company accounts, VAT....

If I want a plumber to supply parts, or whole boilers to me, at any time of the day i.e. hold spares in their van or lock up then I expect a mark up - often reasonably significant due to labour costs etc.

I've been quoted something like £1.5 - 2k for a straight combi swap. I know the boiler costs £660 at Plumb Centre (not cost, but Plumb Centre price after their profit). So the the CORGI person will get £840 - £1,340 to cover his labours inc. collecting boiler, some sundry items such as Sentinel, CORGI reg of the installation, a contribution towards test gear replacement, van running, company expenses (think that's it).

My point is the price above still seems high. And if I as a knowledgeable individual want to buy the 'restricted' materials direct, and carry them to site myself why shoudn't I have this option to reduce my costs?

In my example I've bought the Boiler using my trade account with Wolseley (heavy DIY'er) - I've had it delivered for free. I intend to recycle my old boiler to the local tip. I'll buy Sentinel myself. All I want to do is pay for the expert labour of a CORGI guy to remove & fit and register with CORGI. For this I see circa £500 for a plain days work and contribution to his overheads as reasonable.

The point of this thread is that Plumb Centre allegedly are supposed to be preventing individuals reducing costs by doing the legwork of material buying themselves. This seems restrictive practice to me.

Using my example, could you give me an idea of what you see as reasonable cost wise. I ask only so I can understand better.

Cheers, again no offence intended.

 

[Deleted member 2053]

I would normally be quite happy with £500 for a good days work. However, you cannot just change a boiler without also carrying out a full system flush. Like it or not that is building regs. A proper flush is a full day's work and will involve checking the surface temperature of each radiator in turn to ensure that there are no cold spots which would be indicative of a sludge build up, and fixing the problem if there were. Most plumbers I know who carry out power flushes would then insist on installing a Magnaclean to preserve the system clealiness and protect the finer matrix of a modern heat exchanger. Then you have the electrics. Most old installations did not have an isolator installed adjacent to the boiler. Once again this is now a legal requirement and as it has to shut down all the electrics to do with the heating, may not be trivial. So you are already running two days, rather than the one you quote for a straight swap, plus probably the cost of a magnaclean. If you want to find a plumber who's really making money look no further than Mr Adey!

With regard to component prices charged, I think that the fact I spend £30,000 a year with a merchant entitles me to better terms than someone who spends less than a £1,000. If it didn't I would take my custom to someone who appreciates it.

Finally, if the boiler were to fail shortly after installation you would expect your installing plumber to come out and diagnose the problem. If you supply the boiler yourself you have no right to demand that. There has to be a small amount vectored into each installation to cover the cost to us of these call outs.

Hope this helps.

 

[marshr02]

Cheers for reply Graham. What about £500 /day until sorted - rather than pricework? I could live with that. I'm just not a fan of pricework...

I understand you points. Out of interest is the power flush a requirement just to satisy the boiler warranty, or is it definitely essential for CORGI sign-off.

I do spend more than £1000 / year with Wolseley though

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 2053]

Part L of building regs, required for benchmarking, and also included in the manufacturers instructions for installation of all the boilers I have fitted recently. Corgi are insistent that equipment is installed in accordance with the manuf inst above all other considerations as those are the conditions under which the equipment has been certified.

 

[marshr02]

Cheers for info. Makes sense. My only thought - I feel my system is quite 'clean'. I've put TRVs on most rads, and - don't laugh - taken them outside and poked a garden hose through the end. Obviously I've used cleansers after work, and inhibitors to finish. The drained fluid always seem quite clear. This is an area I'm unsure about as I haven't the experience to judge. I can understand that the installer can't take my word for it - it's a pity there isn't some test gear to put a value on how full of muck a system is?

 

[Deleted member 2053]

Well in theory there is. I have one. But the problem is that this only measures the stuff that is motile - which is what you would remove with a hose through the rad. Black magnetite can set fairly solid. Removal with a powerflushing machine is the most reliable method.

 

[marshr02]

Thanks. Over & out.

Guess the moderator might want to move some posts around as I think I've moved off topic.