Exposed pipes - a query

[Mjward]

Hello all

I have recently purchased a property and now starting to slice up the various jobs into DIY vs get a professional in.

Given the likely disruption, one of the early tasks I want to address is the exposed central heating pipework that effectively does a full loop around the first floor (wood joists)

Hopefully the pictures are of assistance. In a nutshell I am looking to have these covered and have the following questions:

1) is this something that a competent DIYer can take on?
2) the pipework covers 4 bedrooms and a bathroom, any idea would it would cost to have a professional do the work? (floorboards easy access throughout)
3) the pipes are much thicker than I am used to, is this just a case of different standards at the time it was originally installed? and would that mean pipework all the way back to the boiler would need to be changed so that it is the same diameter throughout?
4) the house was surprisingly warm for its age, would those thick pipes be doing a good job of distributing heat throughout the rooms (in addition to the radiator) or should I view it as an inefficient waste and my alterations would be more than just cosmetic?

Thanks in advance for all and any help

Martin

 

[Vee]

A gravity (possibly) circulated one pipe system from a bygone era. A beautiful example of an early 20th century heating system preserved in a time capsule including cast iron radiators and pipework with 100 years worth of internal corrosion.

If you want efficiency, get system upgraded to two pipe system. A full strip out and start again for a professional (not of the faint hearted type).

 

[Mjward]

A gravity (possibly) circulated one pipe system from a bygone era. A beautiful example of an early 20th century heating system preserved in a time capsule including cast iron radiators and pipework with 100 years worth of internal corrosion.

If you want efficiency, get system upgraded to two pipe system. A full strip out and start again for a professional (not of the faint hearted type).

eeek! doesn't sound cheap and also not something I would attempt from a DIY angle.
excluding cost of news radiators, any ballpark idea what this might set me back?

 

[Last Plumber]

What is the property type? Is it a large old house or a flat?

 

[Mjward]

What is the property type? Is it a large old house or a flat?

Large old house, 1906. In Yorkshire.

 

[Last Plumber]

Large old house, 1906. In Yorkshire.

Probably (as per Vee), installed as a one pipe system on gravity and a solid fuel boiler.
The pipework is a major part of the heat output.
It isn't a DIY job.
What boiler?

 

[Mjward]

Probably (as per Vee), installed as a one pipe system on gravity and a solid fuel boiler.
The pipework is a major part of the heat output.
It isn't a DIY job.
What boiler?

Baxi (gas) system boiler, around 10yrs old

 

[Gasmk1]

If you want them gone it’s a professional rip out and then re pipe with all new rads it’s going to be an expensive job also lots of reparation to woodwork and decorating. It’s not going to be cheap

 

[Last Plumber]

Baxi (gas) system boiler, around 10yrs old

As Gasmk says, big job, much disruption.

If it isn't leaking and it works well, you might be better keeping it going. I work in a lot of buildings with systems that age and they are still going strong. If the boiler hasn't got one now, then when you change it it would be better with a commercial filter (to protect the plate) and a plate heat exchanger to separate the old from the new.

 

[Gasmk1]

As Gasmk says, big job, much disruption.

If it isn't leaking and it works well, you might be better keeping it going. I work in a lot of buildings with systems that age and they are still going strong. If the boiler hasn't got one now, then when you change it it would be better with a commercial filter (to protect the plate) and a plate heat exchanger to separate the old from the new.

Done it this way a couple of times best method if keeping large old systems Whether one or two pipe systems, good call

 

[Mjward]

All much appreciated!

Appreciate is a length of piece of string type question but any finger in air view on what that cost would be? (4 bedrooms and excluding cost of rads themselves) Effectively only need to do for first floor, I would be available to help with chases etc and no need to worry about decorating as whole house getting done.

I'm thinking if it's closer to £2k than £10k I'd rather just get it done from the outset and forget about it

 

[Marc Bowers]

Question to the thread, What 10yo Baxi system boiler is suitable for a one-pipe system? Surely at 10yo it’s got to be condensing and I thought most manufacturers don’t recommend their boilers on one-pipe systems. If there is a boiler out there that does, it might save me a lot of grief on boiler upgrade for a customers system that we’ve been nursing along for years. If they don’t, then the property listed above has been incorrectly spec’d.

As for a cost for the job, if you want cowboys to nail clip 10mm pipes around door frames (unfortunately, I’ve seen it done) then £2k should easily cover it, if you want copper pipework hidden beneath floors, boxed in, old pipe runs made good, then your upper limit might be nearer the mark. If you’re serious then the only way forward is to get a local firm in to quote the job. If you don’t know anyone for recommendations, I find a trip to the local Plumbing suppliers can be fruitful as the counter staff know who regularly buys the quality fittings rather than the minimalist cheap and cheerful. It’s not a guarantee of good workmanship but it indicates who might have more pride in their work.

 

[Last Plumber]

All much appreciated!

Appreciate is a length of piece of string type question but any finger in air view on what that cost would be? (4 bedrooms and excluding cost of rads themselves) Effectively only need to do for first floor, I would be available to help with chases etc and no need to worry about decorating as whole house getting done.

I'm thinking if it's closer to £2k than £10k I'd rather just get it done from the outset and forget about it

I think your higher figure is a bit low to be honest but it is nearer the mark.

 

[Last Plumber]

Question to the thread, What 10yo Baxi system boiler is suitable for a one-pipe system? Surely at 10yo it’s got to be condensing and I thought most manufacturers don’t recommend their boilers on one-pipe systems. If there is a boiler out there that does, it might save me a lot of grief on boiler upgrade for a customers system that we’ve been nursing along for years. If they don’t, then the property listed above has been incorrectly spec’d.

As for a cost for the job, if you want cowboys to nail clip 10mm pipes around door frames (unfortunately, I’ve seen it done) then £2k should easily cover it, if you want copper pipework hidden beneath floors, boxed in, old pipe runs made good, then your upper limit might be nearer the mark. If you’re serious then the only way forward is to get a local firm in to quote the job. If you don’t know anyone for recommendations, I find a trip to the local Plumbing suppliers can be fruitful as the counter staff know who regularly buys the quality fittings rather than the minimalist cheap and cheerful. It’s not a guarantee of good workmanship but it indicates who might have more pride in their work.

I wouldn't run a system like the one in this thread directly off a modern boiler. It could be seen off in a short time.

If you install a plate heat exchanger (PHE), you will have two separate systems. The old one pipe on the secondary side and the new sealed (if you like) system on the primary. There are a few things to check over but on a domestic sized property I wouldn't expect much trouble to be honest. It would likely perform as before the change. I would highly recommend a filter on the secondary to protect the PHE. I use a mesh/magnetic filter combined.

Apologies if I miss-understood what you were asking?

 

[Marc Bowers]

I wouldn't run a system like the one in this thread directly off a modern boiler. It could be seen off in a short time.

If you install a plate heat exchanger (PHE), you will have two separate systems. The old one pipe on the secondary side and the new sealed (if you like) system on the primary. There are a few things to check over but on a domestic sized property I wouldn't expect much trouble to be honest. It would likely perform as before the change. I would highly recommend a filter on the secondary to protect the PHE. I use a mesh/magnetic filter combined.

Apologies if I miss-understood what you were asking?

That’s a good thought, but rather than a plate exchanger, what about a low low header?! Some LLH come with mesh filtration anyway and less likely to block over time. Just stick a filter on the primary return for additional boiler protection.

 

[Mjward]

All much appreciated!

I think your higher figure is a bit low to be honest but it is nearer the mark.

Ah...double ouch. Think this is one I will need to research and do most of the labour myself then, saving the actual boiler connection to someone registered.

Will need to check how the underfloor heating downstairs is plumbed but remain confused as to why at that point it wouldn't have been changed to a flow/return system. Can't imagine one pipe systems fair too well with underfloor heating. A separate combi boiler was installed in the extension which I have assumed covers the additional bathroom and ensuite but am now wondering whether this is what the modern underfloor heating is fed from and the basement system boiler solely covers the first floor single pipe system.

 

[Chuck]

confused as to why at that point it wouldn't have been changed to a flow/return system.

A properly set up one-pipe heating works fine and it's going to cost a small fortune to rip out and replace, as you will discover... Once you see the quote I suspect the idea that "Well, it is a sort of period feature, it would be a pity to lose all the house's character..." will seem quite appealing.

I'd advise you to get a detailed heat loss calculation done and figure out the sizes and positions of the radiators you're going to need with the two-pipe system early in the renovation process. How to handle some rooms, e.g. the long narrow loo in your pics, will need some thought. With any luck, the losses will have been reduced (double glazing, etc.) since the current heating was installed and it may be worth improving the insulation still further to reduce the area of emitters you need.

 

[Mjward]

A properly set up one-pipe heating works fine and it's going to cost a small fortune to rip out and replace, as you will discover... Once you see the quote I suspect the idea that "Well, it is a sort of period feature, it would be a pity to lose all the house's character..." will seem quite appealing.

I'd advise you to get a detailed heat loss calculation done and figure out the sizes and positions of the radiators you're going to need with the two-pipe system early in the renovation process. How to handle some rooms, e.g. the long narrow loo in your pics, will need some thought. With any luck, the losses will have been reduced (double glazing, etc.) since the current heating was installed and it may be worth improving the insulation still further to reduce the area of emitters you need.

Very fair and I suspect the reason it remains is due to said quotes. Will do some BTU calcs in the coming days but another project is to upgrade current single to double glazing so will base heat loss off future completed works.

Suspect the most prudent way forward is to get a few quotes in and see how they look Vs me doing the grunt work of lifting up floors and doing the pipework and rads. I'm retired so have all the time in the world but alas not the money 🤑

 

[Ric2013]

Apart from in the cloakroom and in front of the fireplace, it looks tidy, with radiators matching the panels on the walls. Some of those radiators have a resale value, if you find the right buyer, by the way.

If you can stop the rooms overheating by manually using the radiator valves to switch the radiators on and off, or by using some form of thermostatic valve (if you can find one that works well on this kind of system - perhaps an electonic type), and by varying the boiler flow temperature to reduce heat output in less cold weather, I'm not sure that you're going to make system significantly more efficient by replacing it entirely. All radiators do is give out heat to the rooms and in those terms they are all equally efficient.

Assuming the pipes only get hot when the heating is on, the only real problem is that it's like having one big radiator which you cannot switch off, which might result in overheating even with the radiators off. If this is the case, I wonder whether (since you have spare time), you couldn't find a way of very neatly applying a thin lagging layer (you'd have to invent something non-standard) to reduce the heat output from the pipework? While it is fair to say the setup you have may not allow the boiler to work in the most efficient way, I do wonder what percentage of gas you could actually hope to save, and perhaps some of our resident gas installers will comment on that angle.

I suppose the question is why you are keen to get rid of those pipes in the first place.

 

[Mjward]

Apart from in the cloakroom and in front of the fireplace, it looks tidy, with radiators matching the panels on the walls. Some of those radiators have a resale value, if you find the right buyer, by the way.

If you can stop the rooms overheating by manually using the radiator valves to switch the radiators on and off, or by using some form of thermostatic valve (if you can find one that works well on this kind of system - perhaps an electonic type), and by varying the boiler flow temperature to reduce heat output in less cold weather, I'm not sure that you're going to make system significantly more efficient by replacing it entirely. All radiators do is give out heat to the rooms and in those terms they are all equally efficient.

Assuming the pipes only get hot when the heating is on, the only real problem is that it's like having one big radiator which you cannot switch off, which might result in overheating even with the radiators off. If this is the case, I wonder whether (since you have spare time), you couldn't find a way of very neatly applying a thin lagging layer (you'd have to invent something non-standard) to reduce the heat output from the pipework? While it is fair to say the setup you have may not allow the boiler to work in the most efficient way, I do wonder what percentage of gas you could actually hope to save, and perhaps some of our resident gas installers will comment on that angle.

I suppose the question is why you are keen to get rid of those pipes in the first place.

I possibly should have led with this 🤣... She who must be obeyed has described the setup as hideous on top on her list for things she wants me to change so it at least need to demonstrate I've extensively looked into it and show her what the damage might be 😜

 

[Last Plumber]

That’s a good thought, but rather than a plate exchanger, what about a low low header?! Some LLH come with mesh filtration anyway and less likely to block over time. Just stick a filter on the primary return for additional boiler protection.

You could do that but in the past we have found that sediment still sneaks through and over time it can soil the water ways in the new boiler. Worst case scenario with a small plate like this one would be to replace it if it got blocked.

 

[Last Plumber]

All much appreciated!

Ah...double ouch. Think this is one I will need to research and do most of the labour myself then, saving the actual boiler connection to someone registered.

Will need to check how the underfloor heating downstairs is plumbed but remain confused as to why at that point it wouldn't have been changed to a flow/return system. Can't imagine one pipe systems fair too well with underfloor heating. A separate combi boiler was installed in the extension which I have assumed covers the additional bathroom and ensuite but am now wondering whether this is what the modern underfloor heating is fed from and the basement system boiler solely covers the first floor single pipe system.

Once drained the removal is a big (ish) mucky job that sometimes takes brute strength and ignorance but it is mainly manual labour. You could do that yourself and it would save a fair bit.
Not a bad job in the warmer months (no heating required). You can always find a way to keep someone supplied with hot water for domestic purposes.

 

[Mjward]

Once drained the removal is a big (ish) mucky job that sometimes takes brute strength and ignorance but it is mainly manual labour. You could do that yourself and it would save a fair bit.
Not a bad job in the warmer months (no heating required). You can always find a way to keep someone supplied with hot water for domestic purposes.

Good to hear. I think the sensible thing would be for me to engage a plumber from the outset, explain the works I plan to do and where I would like them to step in just so that if they have a particular way they would prefer the pipes to run etc I can be as accommodating as possible.

 

[Last Plumber]

Good to hear. I think the sensible thing would be for me to engage a plumber from the outset, explain the works I plan to do and where I would like them to step in just so that if they have a particular way they would prefer the pipes to run etc I can be as accommodating as possible.

Good idea.

 

[gpbeck]

Do heat loss for upstairs rooms at 18deg as bedrooms. Repeat with internally insulated walls for each. Lag loft like crazy. Then rip upstairs out completely. No need to remove hidden piping.

Internally insulate then consider electric heating as it is only needed morning and bedtime? Heat will also rise from downstairs.