first BIG job to do on my own, advice needed!

[MP plumb]

i am used to installing big, complicated domestic heating systems, but that used to be with an experienced heating engineer (i was his apprentice)that would work out all of the pipe sizing, size of cylinders, water storage or breaker tanks with a consultant.

he has left the company and i am now doing work for the company. the problem is, they are asking if i can do pipe sizing and water capacity maths, etc to make sure the clients have what they desire for their chosen showers, baths and heating system to work.

i completly understand a typical domestic system, and what normal people use and need, but when it comes to these fancy showers, and wanting to run a bath whilst showering, whist....god knows what else!, it worries me!

when you understand heating and service, you can 'guess the size' pipe you need as it becomes common plumbing knowledge(usually average houses are 15 and 22) but how do i determine when to go up a size or 2 more? and what do i need to know, i.e, do i need to know all litres per mins on all sanitary then do a sum? to determine what size i need?
how do i know if i need 2 boilers, with 2 megaflows, with a breaker tank, and a pump??????etc....

 

[Dannypipe]

how do i determine when to go up a size or 2 more? and what do i need to know, i.e, do i need to know all litres per mins on all sanitary then do a sum? to determine what size i need?
how do i know if i need 2 boilers, with 2 megaflows, with a breaker tank, and a pump??????etc....

You need to spend more time with an experienced engineer. Its totally unfair that they think the apprentice can fill the experienced engineers place with no bother.

Don't let them put you under unfair pressure. There's no way you can just know all this information. It will take years. In the mean time, you'll need some books, the internet and some good blagging skills!

 

[MP plumb]

im not an apprentice any more!!! i carried on working with the guy for another 3 years but because it was quicker to let me do the boiler install, heating circuit and sanitary, i missed the meetings about the design process. i would always install some of it, with a slight idea how it worked, but never got to see the whole picture, or how they decided on 'that size pipe there', or 'that size boiler' or 'that soze megaglo'.....

 

[Dannypipe]

Well while you were busy doing all the grunt work, the other engineer was in the meetings sizing the systems. Now he's gone you can't just make it up. You'll need to get as much advise as you can.

Most people don't know it all of the top of their head.

When I size something, I sit down, draw it out, and put my heads in the books.

To work out flow rates, and pipe sizes in heating systems, then a Mears calculator is very useful tool. Learning how to use them takes a bit of practise.

Sizing boilers comes down to working out the heat requirments for the building (various calculators available, but again Mears is good). You then size the boiler/s to suit.

You then need to work out the gas size pipe work for the boiler (you will have learned this to pass your ACS).

Working out pipe sizes on the heating system can be done with a Mears calculator. Or you can just work out the total heat output, and ensure the pipe running to each part will carry enough heat (BTU's or KW's).

Sometimes I'm amazed that systems will work as well as they do on the pipe sizes. For example I visited a big town house today. Over three floors. Large property. The F&R on the boiler are in 22mm. The house apparently gets nice and warm, very quickly. (I have to install a new boiler in a new location). So I'm going to run new 22mm pipe work onto that old distribution. Had I done the system, I would have started in 28mm, and by the looks of it. I would have got it wrong. (over sized it).

Its time, practise and learning from your mistakes I guess.

​

 

[diamondgas]

im not an apprentice any more!!! i carried on working with the guy for another 3 years but because it was quicker to let me do the boiler install, heating circuit and sanitary, i missed the meetings about the design process. i would always install some of it, with a slight idea how it worked, but never got to see the whole picture, or how they decided on 'that size pipe there', or 'that size boiler' or 'that soze megaglo'.....

Breath in .....................Breath out.....................

Know your limitations clairplumb! In the years you've been working with this person have you picked anything up along the way? There is always going to be the first time with anything Are you ready to go there and make the decisions is the question? If you've still got the persons phone number why not give them a ring and ask them to help you out lol?

 

[MP plumb]

BREEEATTHHHH!!!!!!
i do have his number, and we are friends but he left the job for an easier life as it is very demanding, as i hope you can tell from what im taking about. i have been honest and said i prob cant do it alone, which they have accepted, but i want to do it alone. i know experience goes far but i wana be able to say to them, 'yer, i can design the system, i can tell you how big the cylinder needs to be for this, i can tell you that you need a breaker tank, etc!

 

[Dannypipe]

You mean buffer?

 

[MP plumb]

buffer?

 

[Dannypipe]

I think you mean buffer tanks if we're talking about heating? Break tanks are to do with water distribution.

Breaker tanks. I wondered if you meant buffer?

As for working out whether you need one can often be helped by speaking to the manufactures technical lines. Or if you know you need one, call them and they'll help you size it.

 

[diamondgas]

BREEEATTHHHH!!!!!!
i do have his number, and we are friends but he left the job for an easier life as it is very demanding, as i hope you can tell from what im taking about. i have been honest and said i prob cant do it alone, which they have accepted, but i want to do it alone. i know experience goes far but i wana be able to say to them, 'yer, i can design the system, i can tell you how big the cylinder needs to be for this, i can tell you that you need a breaker tank, etc!

Well flippin good for you With this attitude you'll make it IMHO! Knowing where to turn for help is always the first step in my opinion, you've got to know your limitations in this game! That's not about saying I'm thick or stupid, more about saying "hey I don't know this, but am willing to learn!" Unfortunately nothing but experience is going to get you through the barrier of doubt! LOL ... No mater what you do, until it's all up and running and everyone is satisfied their always be some doubt! Give it a go anyways!!!

What specifically are we talking here?

 

[MP plumb]

diamondgas, i will know more in a few days, whats involved, i think its still being talked about.
Dannypipe, i mean breaker tank. theres this new system out where the pressure works on air pressure, a bit like a megaflo, but different?!!, i dunno, i need to read up on it all.

 

[SimonJohns]

diamondgas, i will know more in a few days, whats involved, i think its still being talked about.
Dannypipe, i mean breaker tank. theres this new system out where the pressure works on air pressure, a bit like a megaflo, but different?!!, i dunno, i need to read up on it all.

Do you mean a boosted hot water system

Break tank and pump?

How big is the system you have to design and install?

 

[Dannypipe]

Air pressure, would be an accumalator.

Could be using a pump to charge the accumalator from a break tank.

Anyway, good luck with it. Ask on here if you need help.

 

[tamz]

As mentioned before don't jump in and say you can do it when you can't. Big jobs have to offer a guarantee of performance and if you get it wrong they will blame you. (how big are we talking here? What type of building and what is it serving?)
It is unfair to land this on you when they must know you haven't got the experience to do it. Asking the guy you worked with before would be a big help as he will know the systems and will explain how he sized things.

If you decide to run with this, when you get the spec of the job post it up and i'm sure someone will help. There are a few switched on guys here.

 

[AWheating]

also if you go to manufactures they can be very helpful, underfloor heating manufactures will doing drawings and spec, cylinder manufacture may help you size up the hot water demand. Boiler manufactures sometimes help you with heating designs. Even polypipe will design your guttering if you ask and give them enough time..... so dont be afraid to be cheeky and ask manufactures for help, they do afterall wont to sell you something. some reps are very helpful and will do site visit's.

 

[Guest123]

Well done Claire for having the will to succeed and do better. Ambition is a great thing in this game and with your attitude you will go far.

 

[Gray0689]

A breaker tank to me is used when poor water flow bit like a cws but bigger and pumped as the incoming mains

 

[Bernie2]

Yes it is important to keep all design processes recorded to show that you followed an approved design code. A bit like the Guide to the Building Regs helps prove you followed an approved design.

The idea being that if the company got sued for not meeting the clients heat requirements the company could say it followed an approved design criteria that says it should have and so the company is not fully at fault.

If for instance a BS code of practise said 22mm was required to deliver the required heat output to the rads and you used 15mm the onus then is on you to prove you are not wrong. In a court of law citing the likes of a BS guide on pipe sizing that you had used, is usually enough to help prove you where following an agreed and approved method of pipe sizing.

You would look a bit silly saying "The engineer I worked with did it that way!" they would probably say "Who is he when he is at home!" they could hardly say that about an approved code of practise from some officially recognised and respected body.

I know from experience that quoting some Code of Practise or other, often stops fighting and gets you allies from the people who wrote the practises. And any way your boss may give you a bonus for protecting the companies interests in helping partly protect it against any litigation by using an approved code.

 

[Dannypipe]

A breaker tank to me is used when poor water flow bit like a cws but bigger and pumped as the incoming mains

Yeah me too, I can't remember why I asked that (without looking back over the whole thread.

You can get accumalators with a pump that is rated to pump straight from the mains. (under 11 litres per minute).