flue regulations

[carolosunny]

PLEASE PLEASE can someone give me some advice🙂 I live in a split level house...the living room being on lower level. I had a Valor homeflame gas fire fitted with a balanced flue fitted 19years ago (they do last dont they!!! AND Ive had no trouble with it!!!😀) It was inspected by a Corgi Inspector as the gas fitter had to have 5 jobs checked to get his Corgi certificate. It has been serviced EVERY year and for the past 5 years by the same company. I live in a housing association house. Last week they said regulations have changed in 1999 and the flue has to be 300mm off the floor and as mine isnt they condemned the fire and turned my gas off 😡 I thought the regulation was the flue has to be 300mm from the heat source (the fire) and not where the flue sticks out of the wall...the flue sticks out onto my drive, it has a 'chip basket' thingy (dont know its technical name lol ) around it and it is about an inch off the ground but as I said my house is split level...you have to go down 3 stairs to be on the same level as the fire. Have the regulations changed? I dont want to get rid of my fire as I love it 😉 Any advice will be great *** thanxs *** Carol

 

[Puddle]

Well the flue has to be 300 from the ground min and being 30mm from the ground raises all sorts of safety issues, find in had to believe the original manufacturers instructions recommended such a short distance from the ground. The property is a housing association property and they have every right to protect it (and probably you) by making sure all appliances connected to a gas supply are done so safely and yours is/was not.
I know it is annoying when the fire/appliance has been working for so long without any problems(or so you may think) but maybe you should think the other way, it has been good that the situation has been made safe before anything happened, maybe you have been lucky and only used it ,unbeknown to you ,when any adverse conditions were not present outside but we try to stir away from luck were gas safety is concerned 🙂

imho

 

[carolosunny]

thanxs for your reply X Like I said it was inspected by a Corgi Inspector when it was fitted so presumed everything was legal 😕 and no one has mentioned anything about it before...I am now divorced from the 'company' who fitted it so can't really go back and ask advice 😉 so what you are saying is get a new fire 🙁 heyho we live and learn XX

 

[aggis]

Hi,
It appears the fire has been fitted not to the manufactures instructions MI.

If the flue is less than 300mm from the ground this does not warrant the fire been disconnected. This balanced flue terminal is classed as 'Not up to current standards' which means it has not been fitted as per MI or the regulation has changed. This means it isn't dangerous.& you should have been notified only, [preferably in writing.]

If however the fire was not burning correctly or there was decking or combustable material in close proximity to it, it would be dangerous, & it would have to be disconnected.

Unfortunately the last engineer has made the call, & disconnected it, I would ask them to check the regs regarding this or get another Gas Safe Eng to look at it.

At the end of the day, he has acted responsibly if not a bit too firmly.

 

[carolosunny]

Thanxs for your reply X I suppose it depends on which floor level they are looking at... The flue is 31" ( Ive just measured it 🙂 )from the floor in the living room but as the house is split level the flue is only 4" above the driveway level (just measured that too 🙂 ) The flue has a cover etc on it. I just need to know for certain as it's legality as if the fire is legal there is no need to buy another one. I too think it was extreme of disconnecting the gas especially as I came home from work to discover they had done it and they could have just disconnected the fire supply and not the whole gas supply...I had no hot water or cooker for over 24 hours 🙁(( .Maybe I need to go on the Valor website and look at their regulations XX Carol XX

 

[kirkgas]

Thanxs for your reply X I suppose it depends on which floor level they are looking at... The flue is 31" ( Ive just measured it 🙂 )from the floor in the living room but as the house is split level the flue is only 4" above the driveway level (just measured that too 🙂 ) The flue has a cover etc on it. I just need to know for certain as it's legality as if the fire is legal there is no need to buy another one. I too think it was extreme of disconnecting the gas especially as I came home from work to discover they had done it and they could have just disconnected the fire supply and not the whole gas supply...I had no hot water or cooker for over 24 hours 🙁(( .Maybe I need to go on the Valor website and look at their regulations XX Carol XX

you are 100% right on this point, and in actual fact they have no power to disconnect without asking for permission, if the drive way is non combustible it is NCS or at worst AR (depending on test results on the day) so it was sufficient for the engineer to turn it off, get a signature telling you it is NCS or AR and let you take full responsibility for using it or not, get them back, manager/supervisor and discuss the options, complain about their lack of procedure and the fact you were left with no gas, but keep in mind IF the engineer made a judgement based on your safety (even if they were a bit OTT) then dont go absolutely bananas

 

[carolosunny]

Thanxs for your reply XX Go bannanas ??? lol it's as if you know me🙂 I may sound abit daft but when you mention NCS and AR what do these mean? I feel that they are important 😕 XX Carol XX

 

[kirkgas]

Thanxs for your reply XX Go bannanas ??? lol it's as if you know me🙂 I may sound abit daft but when you mention NCS and AR what do these mean? I feel that they are important 😕 XX Carol XX

sorry NCS (Not to Current Standards) and to be honest means you can choose to ignore all advice and carry on using it, the lowest category, (actually there should be another category of NIC (Not installed Correctly) which is more accurate for your fire, but there isnt so all we have is NCS, your choice to carry on using
AR (At Risk) which is a potential to cause a problem which may lead to a safety issue, your flue should be 300mm from the ground, IF you had a timber decking and it is only 100mm away, we would call this AR as there is a potential for the heat from the flue to burn the wood, the most dangerous category is ID (Immediately Dangerous) which is the only one we disconnect from the supply (as i said earlier only with your permission, but if you refuse we would call the gas supplier) in your case say the 100mm gap was to timber decking which IS scorched this would be ID
PS (which means Post Script!!) if you are going to post on here you will need to stop giving us all x's as we will get the wrong idea, as most of us are always grumpy on here and moaning, you will give us all a bad name by being so happy

 

[carolosunny]

I think I'm getting the jist of all this jargon now😀 As the flue goes out onto a concrete drive with no decking it should be NCS if there was scorched decking or a window or car port near it it would be ID 😀 I think I need to ask the Manager to re assess the fire and I can practise my new found knowledge 😀 also I think an appology for the over the top disconnection of the whole gas supply is also in order.I feel very clever now!!!
THANXS for all your helpful advice *** Carol ***
PS
I don't think plumbers are grumpy XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX😉

 

[kirkgas]

I think I'm getting the jist of all this jargon now😀 As the flue goes out onto a concrete drive with no decking it should be NCS if there was scorched decking or a window or car port near it it would be ID 😀 I think I need to ask the Manager to re assess the fire and I can practise my new found knowledge 😀 also I think an appology for the over the top disconnection of the whole gas supply is also in order.I feel very clever now!!!
THANXS for all your helpful advice *** Carol ***
PS
I don't think plumbers are grumpy XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX😉

no prob keep us posted with the outcome

 

[carolosunny]

Thanxs X
Ive wrote a letter to the Director of the company. Of course I will keep you informed I'm a plumbers mate now hahahahaha 🙂
XX Carol XX

 

[carolosunny]

Hiya
I had a visit today from the Gas Service contracts manager. He has questioned and will investigate why the 1st engineer condemed the fire without looking, also why they turned the whole gas off which he admits is unacceptable and also why the fire has passed services every year without a NCS. He did add that the flue has corrosion on it so the pipe would mean it was ID. I said ok I can get that fixed but he said I cant because if I fix the flue now I would also need to bring it up to current standards which would be impossible to do as the flue cant be raised on the drive by 300mm as this would mean raising the fire in the living room by 300mm. He said I could now only have an electric fire. I said what about a flueless gas fire but he said they were rubbish and not really safe (????) he also said that I would need a ventilation brick put in place. I know a few people have mentioned flueless fires so again can I ask your advice please.
*** Carol ***
p.s He was most impressed that I knew what NCS and ID was!!!! 😉

 

[kirkgas]

2nd thing first!! troll the tinternet for comments on flueless fires you will find they arent greatly loved (thats the polite version)
on the issue of renewing the flue, the whole appliance cant be renewed in a position that doesnt meet todays regs and would have to be resited, first impression is that an existing appliance can be worked on, so does renewing the flue pipe count as a repair? i kinda think it does, the appliance is NCS at the moment, now we know the flue has corrosion it is AR, if the corrosion has caused a hole it is ID, i think i would fix it, i dont repair things that make the classification worse ( i hope) as far as i can see it before the corrosion it was NCS, if you change the flue it is still NCS, as it is existing appliance i think i would be happy to change the flue and comment to you that the flue position is NCS and let you decide whether to use it or not, i wonder in this type of situstion whether the inspectors hands are tied behind his back a bit as he needs to get his firm off the hook because of the original poor diagnostics. some others will comment on my opinion on whether renewing the flue falls into the category of repair and is allowed or whether they side with the inspector and would bin it

 

[aggis]

Technically speaking an NCS is a verbal notice/warning [not dangerous], but as engineers we are advised to put it in writing.
What is the corrosion on the flue, is it affecting the combustion of the fire?
Yes if flue replaced must be to current standards
Regards flueless fires they're only secondary heating [ need central heating ] need vent [draught] & can cause condensation especially if not correctly sized

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

2nd thing first!! troll the tinternet for comments on flueless fires you will find they arent greatly loved (thats the polite version)
on the issue of renewing the flue, the whole appliance cant be renewed in a position that doesnt meet todays regs and would have to be resited, first impression is that an existing appliance can be worked on, so does renewing the flue pipe count as a repair? i kinda think it does, the appliance is NCS at the moment, now we know the flue has corrosion it is AR, if the corrosion has caused a hole it is ID, i think i would fix it, i dont repair things that make the classification worse ( i hope) as far as i can see it before the corrosion it was NCS, if you change the flue it is still NCS, as it is existing appliance i think i would be happy to change the flue and comment to you that the flue position is NCS and let you decide whether to use it or not, i wonder in this type of situstion whether the inspectors hands are tied behind his back a bit as he needs to get his firm off the hook because of the original poor diagnostics. some others will comment on my opinion on whether renewing the flue falls into the category of repair and is allowed or whether they side with the inspector and would bin it

and just to add a slant on flueless i have fitted a few they are rubbish,also we have had a fatality here in wales when a focalpoint flueless was not gas rated the result the death of a young child

 

[carolosunny]

I will look on the internet but to be honest you can't beat a gas fire in the winter....🙂 I REALLY don't want an electric fire 🙁 The flue has 2 parts and from what I understand 1 bit blows warm air out and the other bit draws air in... ( I think) right at the end is a little grill fixed with rivets and it is that which is corroded...this might sound daft but if you could undo the rivets and attatch a new bit that would be great (I'm not saying I want to do that...just explaining which bit it is ) Do you think I could find a balanced flue fire that says 300mm from heat source but not how high from the ground outside?
*** Carol ***
🙁 all I want is a gas fire 🙁

 

[GreenArmy]

In my humble opinion i think you should let go of the fire and accept an electric fire. All these regulations regarding gas are made for YOUR safety and sometimes engineers can see things differently. The fire is 19 years old, the flue shows corrosion and the flue terminal is NCS. Your in a housing association property and the landlord does not want to gamble on if's and but's.
On a positive note, you will be surprised with the range and efficiency of a new electric fire.
Dont go down the flueless route as you wont enjoy the draught and your landlord probably wont allow it.
Hope that helps.

 

[aggis]

Can you photo it & post it, then we can have a look🙂
Then maybe a 2nd opinion.

 

[carolosunny]

Thats awful to hear about the death of a child 🙁

The thing that bothers me with electric fires is the amount of heat you get from them....I have central heating in the rest of the house but when the gas fire was fitted they removed the radiator in the living room, Ive never really used the central heating as the fire was enough for the whole house (I'm a mid terrace so I think I zapped heat from my neighbours lol ) I have only got 1 free wall for a fire or radiator... radiators don't give that lovely log flame effect do they ??? The housing Association are really good and don't mind you doing alterations as long as they are done safely. Do you think if I went to a fire showroom with all my measurements they could find me a gas fire within regulations? from what you guys (I do respect your valuable advice) have said maybe flueless is not a good idea but maybe they could advice something different (????)
*** Carol *** a head shedded Carol lol

hahaha I will take a photograph 😱 Not now as its a bit dark lol ..... this flue has never had so much attention!!! 🙂
*** Carol ***
oh by the way I have received a official form to fill in about my complaint and it asks in the last box what I want from my complaint so the man today said to put changes in the way they act on NCS and ID and also to ask for financial compensation for the upset caused so this can go towards a new fire 🙂 XX

 

[kirkgas]

if it is only the terminal that is corroded then in my opinion it is repairable, the fact that the flue is less than 300mm from the ground and dosent comply with the MI's must make it less than 100% (in this instance i would say it is 99% safe the POC's will simply get deflected round and away) in my opinion it isnt unsafe at all and if it was mine i would continue to use it, if the corrosion is only on the end grill bit and the grill bit is still attached it is def AR not ID, but you keep chuck more wee bits of info at us😀 haha told you we were grumpy. as i said in my last post i think the manager is backing his guy here (nothing wrong with that at times, but sometimes you just have to hold your hand up and admit he was wrong, erring on the safety side to protect you but nevertheless wrong) so he should bite the bullet and fix it for you, the next issue might be the flue isnt available, and if a private job could be fixed by someone using something else, but 100% will not be done by a contractor working for a landlord, which i agree with, post the make and model or contact the manufacturer to double check if the flue assembly/terminal is still available
if you keep your approach reasonable with the gas company they may relent and fix if possible, if you start on a rant about their mistakes things can be written in such a way that the contractor will convince the landlord to bin the fire, (something that may have already happened as a lot of landlords want rid of gas fires as it costs them money every year to service them, they dont care if a leccy fire gives you less hest and costs you more, as it was changed all in the name of safety missus)

 

[Dotty]

I don't think plumbers are grumpy XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX😉

I am. 😀

 

[carolosunny]

Thanxs for everyones advice on this subject X I decided that an electric fire would be the best route. I did think of a flueless gas fire but after your expert opinions on them I thought stay away. I didn't look for another balanced flue fire as I thought if regulations change again I could be having the same issues 12 months down the line so I am now the proud owner of a focalpoint electric fire (please don't tell me that Ive picked a rubbish one!!! lol ) I am going to arrange for a radiator to be fitted in the living room too 🙂
I have found that I am somewhat more knowledgable on the gas fire front now and it's thanxs to you all 😉
special *** to the 'grumpy gas men ' 😀
*** Carol ***

 

[carolosunny]

Hiya to you all
I thought I'd let you know about the outcome of my complaint. The Gas man who originally came out has been reprimanded over his attitude. They have admitted they should not have disconnected the whole gas supply especially when they have my landline number, mobile number, work phone number and also my email my address, the inspector said they had ample ways of contacting me, they are going to do ongoing training for engineers so they know current standards so they can do NCS. They are going to reimburse me the cost of my new electric fire!!!! whoop whoop AND they are going to disconnect my old gas fire, fill the hole from the flue and make new the wall!!! and all this with a written appology!!!!! If it wasnt for your advice I probably wouldnt have had the confidence to complain so a big THANK YOU *** I'm one very happy bunny!!!!😀
Thanxs to everyone who answered my call for help XX
*** Carol ***

 

[kirkgas]

glad you got it finally sorted, to your (nearly) satisfaction, it does pay to complain but always in a certain way, firm but polite to see how things go, and it helps that you are now a gas fire expert, they seem to have had a think about the bad PR and to be honest i'm not sure they could have done much more at the end with their resolution