Fortic Cylinder Shower Pump

[adigator]

Hi everyone,

After couple of days spent in searching for a solution, here I am here, asking for a professional opinion.
In our bathroom we have a thermostatic shower panel column tower with a shower booster pump fitted.
Few days ago noticed a leak in kitchen caused from the pump upstairs - I believe that the seal has gone,
so tryed to find any spares supplier, but it seems like they no longer make these pumps ...It's a
ULTRA AUTOMATIC TWIN SHOWER PUMP
Then I thought that is best to replace the old pump with a new 2 bar Salamander one...After testing it though,
the pump stopped in only 2-3 minutes...then started again, then stopped Checked in Google only to find out
that a shower pump is not recommended to use when having a Fortic cylinder... Now I'm really confused
cause we've actually been using this shower (and old pump) since we first moved in more than 2 years ago!

Any suggestions please, on how to solve this problem?

Thanks

 

[Mike Jackson]

The pump is probably draining the fortic too quickly. You need one with a much lower flow rate or change to a conventional cylinder and cold water storage cistern.

 

[mountainman]

As Mike says, your pump is too much for the stored water that you have.

You could try putting low pressure seatings in the ball valves feeding the cold tank and the Fortic tank.

If that doesn't work then your choices are limited to system upgrade, smaller pump, very quick showers or fit an electric shower.

 

[PETE 123]

Putting a valve and slow down the inlet to pump may help

 

[chris watkins]

Where's the cold water to the shower pump coming from ?????

 

[chris watkins]

Hi everyone,

After couple of days spent in searching for a solution, here I am here, asking for a professional opinion.
In our bathroom we have a thermostatic shower panel column tower with a shower booster pump fitted.
Few days ago noticed a leak in kitchen caused from the pump upstairs - I believe that the seal has gone,
so tryed to find any spares supplier, but it seems like they no longer make these pumps ...It's a
ULTRA AUTOMATIC TWIN SHOWER PUMP
Then I thought that is best to replace the old pump with a new 2 bar Salamander one...After testing it though,
the pump stopped in only 2-3 minutes...then started again, then stopped Checked in Google only to find out
that a shower pump is not recommended to use when having a Fortic cylinder... Now I'm really confused
cause we've actually been using this shower (and old pump) since we first moved in more than 2 years ago!

Any suggestions please, on how to solve this problem?

Thanks

I hope you notified your local water undertaker before installing a booster pump which can deliver more than 12 L/M otherwise you have broken the Water Supply (& Fittings) Regulations 1999 an approved plumber could have self notified this for you, you would then not be open to a £5000 fine.

 

[stevetheplumber]

I hope you notified your local water undertaker before installing a booster pump which can deliver more than 12 L/M otherwise you have broken the Water Supply (& Fittings) Regulations 1999 an approved plumber could have self notified this for you, you would then not be open to a £5000 fine.

i think that only applies to pumps on the main ???

 

[chris watkins]

i think that only applies to pumps on the main ???

It may surprise people but it is any pump drawing more than 12 L/M directly or indirectly from the supply.

 

[Mike Jackson]

So when did this come in then? It wasn't in the regs when I did the course 6 months ago.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[chris watkins]

It has been in my WRAS Guide for a lon.........g time, it's a first edition (sadly)
3.15 G6.1 (R6.1)
"under Regulation 5(1) Table, sub-clause 4 (d), the written consent of the Water Supplier is required before the installation of a pump or booster drawing more than 0.2 L/S (12L/M), connected either directly or indirectly to a supply pipe (see Diagrams R6.1a & R6.1b)"

 

[Mike Jackson]

The regs quote the supply pipe but any pipe after a cistern is a distribution pipe so not subject to that regulation.

 

[Howsie]

Yip. Distribution pipe is the key.

 

[chris watkins]

So what we are saying is that the pipe after the Break cistern is still a "supply pipe" not a "distribution pipe" ???

 

[Mike Jackson]

No the pipe after the break cistern is a distribution pipe not a supply pipe. The supply pipe is often called the cold main or rising main whilst the distribution pipe is often called the cold down service.

 

[chris watkins]

R6.1

Where a pump draws water directly from a supply pipe or a water main there is a possibility of the pump attempting to draw more water than the main can provide; in this situation the pressure in the main may be reduced and vacuum conditions arise, thus creating conditions in which backflow may occur and could lead to a reduction in the quality of the water in the main.
While there is likely to be little increased demand on a supply pipe if a pump or booster is connected ‘indirectly’ to a supply pipe, that is, connected from the outlet of a cistern supplied with water from a supply pipe; under Regulation 5(1) ‘Table’, sub-clause 4 (d), the written consent of the Water Supplier is required before installation of a pump or booster drawing more than 0.2 litres per second (12 litres per minute), connected either directly or indirectly to a supply pipe (see Diagrams R6.1a and R6.1b).

This is a direct quote from the WRAS guide, if we accept that the pipe exiting the break cistern is indeed a distribution pipe then it is quite clear the installation of a pump drawing more than ..........., is notifiable.
R6.2 & R6.3 are worth a read (pumped showers)

G6.3

Irrespective of whether the water supply to a shower is pumped or the shower incorporates a pump, whether supplied with water from either a supply pipe or a distributing pipe, and is of a type specified by the regulator, consent to install the shower should be obtained from the Water Undertaker (see Regulation 5).

 

[Nostrum]

seems pretty conclusive to me, even if it is a bit on the ridiculous side.

All i can say is, what they don't know won't hurt them :smilielol5:I wonder how many are kicking around un-notified Credit where it's due Chris, you know how to dig a dusty regulation out from no where!

 

[chris watkins]

I know, I know, "digging" & "dusty" regs are right up my street, being SAD & having no outside interests, it gets to you like that, let that be a warning to all you young Plumbers out there.

 

[Nostrum]

Probably one of those reg's most plumbers would rather forget about, but it's there like it or lump it!

Thankfully I don't fit showers so I'm in the clear!

 

[Mike Jackson]

I still think that you are misinterpreting the regulation. The regulations state that we must notify the water undertaker of any pump or booster installation that draws more than 12 litres per minute from the supply pipe.

I have recently fitted a booster set the that supplies 30 l/min but it draws less than 12 l/min from the supply pipe as it is fed via a half inch float operated valve into a cistern. Although I'm supplying 30 l/min to the customer the draw on the supply pipe is less than 12.

I'm fairly sure that the requirement for notification of installation of a shower is a clause that has been put into the regulations but hasn't been invoked yet. I think there are a couple of these in the regulations.

 

[chris watkins]

I still think that you are misinterpreting the regulation. The regulations state that we must notify the water undertaker of any pump or booster installation that draws more than 12 litres per minute from the supply pipe.

I have recently fitted a booster set the that supplies 30 l/min but it draws less than 12 l/min from the supply pipe as it is fed via a half inch float operated valve into a cistern. Although I'm supplying 30 l/min to the customer the draw on the supply pipe is less than 12.

I'm fairly sure that the requirement for notification of installation of a shower is a clause that has been put into the regulations but hasn't been invoked yet. I think there are a couple of these in the regulations.

Hi Mike
I was still not 100% sure so got it from the horses mouth as it were (WRAS) this is the response (& you are spot on with the notification of showers delivering more than 12 L/M not being required)
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your mail.

A pump which draws more than 12 litres per minute is notifiable wherever it is installed on the system, i.e. if the pumps receives/circulates water supplied by a water company, through any type of pipe, then it is notifiable.

Attached is schedule 2.1 of The Water Supply (Water Fitting) regulations 1999 which gives a definition of a distributing pipe.

The below is taken from The Water Regulations Guide published by WRAS:

1.) Service pipe: so much of a pipe which is, or is to be, connected with a water main for supplying water from that main to any premises, as;
a.) Is or is to be subject to water pressure from that main; or
b.) Would be so subject but for the closing of some valve (Water Industry Act 1991 s.219 (1).)
2.) Supply pipe: so much of any service pipe as is not vested in the Water Supplier (Regulations 1 (2)). It is normally the length of the service pipe between the boundary of the part of the street in which the water main is laid, and any terminal fitting directly connected to it and under mains pressure (such as a tap, float operated valve or inlet to an appliance).
Hot water pipes which convey water directly from a hot water storage vessel, instantaneous heater or combination boiler, which are supplied directly, or through a pressure reducing valve, from a cold water supply pipe are also referred to as supply pipes.
3.) Communication pipes: that part of a service pipe which is vested in the Water Supplier.
4.) Distribution pipe: any cold water pipe or hot water pipe that conveys water from a storage cistern either directly or through a hot water storage vessel or other device, and is under pressure from that cistern.

Kind Regards

Hannah