Frequent lock out

[nickocean]

My boiler began to lock out occasionally every now and then.
Got it serviced
continued to lock out getting more frequent
An engineer came, changed the fire lock out, changed the pump, changed some braided leads to the burner
no change
I clean the oil filter near the tank
I replace the capacitor
I discover a crack in the tank lid
Test for water, which I find, pump out the water, put one of those water sock things in the tank.
Bleed the line until the fuel tests for no water at the pump end
Bleed some more
Ran for longer but not that long, have to leave it a while before it restarts.
Eventually locks out.
Its a Grant
I appreciate to sort this i will need an engineer, but seeing as the first one came twice to fix it did'nt even test for water, even when I told him about the cracked lid to the tank and was worried about water. I would like a few pointers as to what the blazes is wrong with the thing. I dont understand why it works then locks out. Its driving me nuts !

 

[SJB060685]

Sounds like a fuel issue. Do you have a vacuum gauge, I suspect, although could be wrong you have a restriction downstream of tank somewhere.

 

[nickocean]

Sounds like a fuel issue. Do you have a vacuum gauge, I suspect, although could be wrong you have a restriction downstream of tank somewhere.

Sounds like a fuel issue. Do you have a vacuum gauge, I suspect, although could be wrong you have a restriction downstream of tank somewhere.

I dont have a vacuum gauge, but thank you ever so much, at least I can specifically request the next engineer to do that test. Then what? If its blocked do they blow air down the line. I suppose the blockage would be between the oil filter and the tank im guessing?. Or does heating oil do something like water in petrol and form a gunk that could irritate the tiger loop?

 

[SJB060685]

So you have a tiger loop do you? You didn't mention that to start with. Never mind. When water and oil mix they form a heterogeneous mixture, that means they do not combine in the solution but rather split into two phases. This produces a milky thick substance commonly known in the field as emulsified oil and it reads havoc on pipework, valves and pumps etc.
Are you 100% sure ALL water was removed from the system prior to a new pump being installed?
With a vacuum gauge and someone who knows what they are looking for you can get a very clear idea if there is a restriction or even full blockage somewhere in the supply system. I was going to say run a few litres off at the pump into a container so come to the same conclusion, although having a tiger loop means this approach is not possible but a vacuum gauge will still work.
The next time it cuts out on lockout quickly pop outside and note the level, if any of oil in the loop and whether or not its foaming.

 

[nickocean]

So you have a tiger loop do you? You didn't mention that to start with. Never mind. When water and oil mix they form a heterogeneous mixture, that means they do not combine in the solution but rather split into two phases. This produces a milky thick substance commonly known in the field as emulsified oil and it reads havoc on pipework, valves and pumps etc.
Are you 100% sure ALL water was removed from the system prior to a new pump being installed?
With a vacuum gauge and someone who knows what they are looking for you can get a very clear idea if there is a restriction or even full blockage somewhere in the supply system. I was going to say run a few litres off at the pump into a container so come to the same conclusion, although having a tiger loop means this approach is not possible but a vacuum gauge will still work.
The next time it cuts out on lockout quickly pop outside and note the level, if any of oil in the loop and whether or not its foaming.

OK so i used water detector paste and it is showing a tiny bit of red where the stick touches the bottom, I've left a stick in a bottle i bled of over night and that shows no water. The tiger loop has about a centimetre of oil sitting in it. I have noticed bubbles, but not foam when its running which i had not ever noticed before, but oil looks ok. The new pump was put in a few weeks before i discovered the water.

 

[SJB060685]

The problem with water contamination is it can make light work of destroying pumps, even new ones in no time at all. I've even heard of some so called engineers, if that's what you can call them replacing 3 pumps on the same burner in a little over a week, simply because they didn't address the initial problem. If you've used detection paste and are confident it has been pumped out then that's good but I'm slightly concerned by the mention of a little red on the stick when it touches the bottom of the tank. There should be absolutely no signs of water whatsoever.
The level of oil in the bottom chamber of the tiger loop varies from installation but as long as it has oil in the bottom chamber then its at least pulling it from the tank and the loop NRV hasn't failed. Seeing bubbles means it's degassing the fuel and expelling air but if its extensive it could be a sign of a blockage/restriction, or a suction leakage somewhere.
The next time the burner shuts down and tries to reignite before going to lockout either listen to what is and isn't happening or try and catch a video of it to share.

 

[nickocean]

The problem with water contamination is it can make light work of destroying pumps, even new ones in no time at all. I've even heard of some so called engineers, if that's what you can call them replacing 3 pumps on the same burner in a little over a week, simply because they didn't address the initial problem. If you've used detection paste and are confident it has been pumped out then that's good but I'm slightly concerned by the mention of a little red on the stick when it touches the bottom of the tank. There should be absolutely no signs of water whatsoever.
The level of oil in the bottom chamber of the tiger loop varies from installation but as long as it has oil in the bottom chamber then its at least pulling it from the tank and the loop NRV hasn't failed. Seeing bubbles means it's degassing the fuel and expelling air but if its extensive it could be a sign of a blockage/restriction, or a suction leakage somewhere.
The next time the burner shuts down and tries to reignite before going to lockout either listen to what is and isn't happening or try and catch a video of it to share.

OK, As I say I am going to get an engineer out anyway, got a few things to do today, sitting in the boiler room waiting for it to misbehave is not on my list! But a little later ill do that and ill get my 15 year old IT technician to work out how to post it - lol. Its just I want it fixed and feel very let down by the first engineer so the next one I want to be able to have an informed conversation about what is possibly wrong. Though I am conscious that their is nothing worse than some one who has been on the net for 5 minutes who now thinks they are an expert!. A video will be useful anyway because I cant expect an engineer to sit in my boiler room all day either. So I really appreciate your help. Now I'm of to do something I do understand, fix my mates petrol strimmer. Little 2 stroke engines either work or they do not. They do not work for a bit then decide to not to. Spark, fuel, compression - easy. Boiler - works, faffs, irritates, confounds, generates lots of swearing.

 

[SJB060685]

To be honest you sound more clued up than your previous engineer, who by the sounds of it just changed random parts in the hope to fix. That is not a sign of a good engineer.
The reason I ask for a video is I can can look and listen to what is and isn't happening. I appreciate its a bit of a frustration but just reading words someone has written doesn't always help the engineer. If I was there then I could look and listen and check things from the tank through to burner in a methodical approach.
As it stands you could still have a fuel issue, on the other hand it could be on the controls side. As I say it's hard to say through just exchanging words.

 

[nickocean]

To be honest you sound more clued up than your previous engineer, who by the sounds of it just changed random parts in the hope to fix. That is not a sign of a good engineer.
The reason I ask for a video is I can can look and listen to what is and isn't happening. I appreciate its a bit of a frustration but just reading words someone has written doesn't always help the engineer. If I was there then I could look and listen and check things from the tank through to burner in a methodical approach.
As it stands you could still have a fuel issue, on the other hand it could be on the controls side. As I say it's hard to say through just exchanging words.

Tomorrow ill do a video, and my daughter will find a way of posting it for me.

 

[SJB060685]

Ok. In the mean time is there a pattern to the lockouts and are you having to bleed the pump at all to get it going again?

 

[Gazzt]

If the tigerloop has lots of bubbling if could be drawing air in through a joint the needs sealed. If the burner runs look at the tigerloop and if it drops the flame what happens in the tigerloop. Also make sure the photocell is clean and not obstructed

 

[nickocean]

If the tigerloop has lots of bubbling if could be drawing air in through a joint the needs sealed. If the burner runs look at the tigerloop and if it drops the flame what happens in the tigerloop. Also make sure the photocell is clean and not obstructed

I took some video's, but of a perfectly working boiler, started immediately, no noises at all. Still occasionally locked out over the weekend. But this morning it came on when the the control called for heat all by itself. Bubbles in the tiger loop seem much smaller than before. A gentle fizz no froth. Im going to give it a couple of days and see how we get on. I am wondering if the last residues of water contamination are working through. There is zero water in the tank now I have taken the sock out. Im guessing that small amounts of contaminated oil remained maybe in the filter bowl, the tiger loop or somehow in the burner itself. Im hoping its purged itself out. Is that possible? As i say its running to the ear perfectly. I

 

[SJB060685]

It is possible that there was very small traces of water left and it has slowly been expelled. I'd imagine if some little traces of water was making its way through to the boiler it might of burnt a bit sooty for a short while.
The tiger loop is a deaerator, it should self bleed the oil line on initial fill and vent any gases extracted from the solution due to being under negative pressure. Some bubbles are normal but if its excessive then like I said above and I believe someone else did? then you could have a suction leakage. If the flexis have been recently replaced then that is a possible entrance for air if the joints aren't properly tight.
Give it a couple days and report back.

 

[nickocean]

I took some video's, but of a perfectly working boiler, started immediately, no noises at all. Still occasionally locked out over the weekend. But this morning it came on when the the control called for heat all by itself. Bubbles in the tiger loop seem much smaller than before. A gentle fizz no froth. Im going to give it a couple of days and see how we get on. I am wondering if the last residues of water contamination are working through. There is zero water in the tank now I have taken the sock out. Im guessing that small amounts of contaminated oil remained maybe in the filter bowl, the tiger loop or somehow in the burner itself. Im hoping its purged itself out. Is that possible? As i say its running to the ear perfectly. I

If the tigerloop has lots of bubbling if could be drawing air in through a joint the needs sealed. If the burner runs look at the tigerloop and if it drops the flame what happens in the tigerloop. Also make sure the photocell is clean and not obstructed

It is possible that there was very small traces of water left and it has slowly been expelled. I'd imagine if some little traces of water was making its way through to the boiler it might of burnt a bit sooty for a short while.
The tiger loop is a deaerator, it should self bleed the oil line on initial fill and vent any gases extracted from the solution due to being under negative pressure. Some bubbles are normal but if its excessive then like I said above and I believe someone else did? then you could have a suction leakage. If the flexis have been recently replaced then that is a possible entrance for air if the joints aren't properly tight.
Give it a couple days and report back.

Just 2 lock outs today - thats a big improvement, i took a look at an old pump an engineer left - if there is something mechanical lying about i cant resist doing that. And i discovered it had a filter in it. So i took the cover off the current one, all nice and clean in there. But there was a bit of what looked like gritty material on the correct side of the filter. So I cleaned it and replaced - but it was not dirty. But there is a filter next to the tank. These filters dont seem all that good to me, ive seen better ones on lawn mowers!

 

[nickocean]

Im calling another engineer today, boiler sounds fine on start up and running, but I'am spotting a pattern. Starts up when the thermostat calls for heat in the morning. Then locks out, reset, and the runs get progressively worse towards evening. Thanks all your advice, only thing i can think of is some sort of blockage. Lets hope an engineer has the answer.

 

[SJB060685]

Possibly still a fuel issue. The strainer at the tank needs to be checked and cleaned or replaced, this is standard procedure for any service. If an engineer doesn't have these parts in their van then can you really call them an engineer?
When it first fires up and the flame drops out does it drop out before the click of the solenoid closing or at the same time? I appreciate it could be hard for you to distinguish but is one of the reasons I asked for a video. Depending on when the flame drops out it will point you in the right direction. Of course an engineer should have all the equipment needed to test these things.

 

[nickocean]

Yes It

Possibly still a fuel issue. The strainer at the tank needs to be checked and cleaned or replaced, this is standard procedure for any service. If an engineer doesn't have these parts in their van then can you really call them an engineer?
When it first fires up and the flame drops out does it drop out before the click of the solenoid closing or at the same time? I appreciate it could be hard for you to distinguish but is one of the reasons I asked for a video. Depending on when the flame drops out it will point you in the right direction. Of course an engineer should have all the equipment needed to test these things.

Ive cleared all the filters i could find - one at the tank, was always clean. Previous engineer didnt look at it, and the one on the pump. However on the basis I have done everything an unqualified berk with a spanner can do. Its time to call in someone ''we hope'' does as even if i knew the problem i would not trust myself be able to fix it. The white box, is full of mystery. I cant sit in the boiler room waiting for it to lock out with video running. So lets get a pro out ! Ill report back when we know. See who was closest - we have had fuel pump failure, fuel supply problem, air leak, i think pretty well wraps it up. Im going with poltergeist myself.

 

[SimonG]

Weak spark

 

[nickocean]

Weak spark

ill add to the list

 

[SimonG]

Is it an riello rdb burner?

 

[nickocean]

Is it an riello rdb burner?

yes indeed

 

[SJB060685]

I appreciate you cant sit in front of the boiler waiting for a lockout sequence, I was simply trying to help to try and narrow it down for you. Hopefully the engineer is competent and thorough. Right now it could be absolutely anything. Good luck

 

[nickocean]

I appreciate you cant sit in front of the boiler waiting for a lockout sequence, I was simply trying to help to try and narrow it down for you. Hopefully the engineer is competent and thorough. Right now it could be absolutely anything. Good luck

Please do not mis understand me - I am really grateful for your comments, you have helped me understand some stuff, some of it i have looked further at elsewhere. If i had known as much as I do now I would have known what the previous engineer had not done, had not tested, made him do it or given him his marching orders. I cant speak for all customers but its not the failure to fix a fault that erks people, its the feeling of vulnerability that the engineer could say ''your warp drive stabilizer circuit needs replacing'' and you mortgage the house to pay him and still arguing with the wife for the duvet. I suspect most people like me are looking for reassurance and some knowledge so your not totally reliant on the competence or indeed, rare i hope, of their honesty. Everyone who has commented has been a great help. I was able to have a discussion with my new engineer that suggest that while I wont do it myself I do know basics about the possible faults, how to check them, and roughly what is required to fix them. I don't think someone like me should go around fiddling with the internals of the magic white box. All you people have been great. The lady engineer should be here shortly so watch this space to find out which one of you has won the boiler fault lottery. The prize is all the old junk the previous engineer left behind made ito a really crappy paper weight. (sorry its a free forum - what did you expect)

 

[SJB060685]

As I said above you seem far more switched on than a lot of so called engineers I know of. I know a couple female oil engineers and they are very good. What part of the country are you if you don't mind me asking?
I completely understand your desire not to be taken for a fool and fed utter Rubbish to get money out of you, unfortunately that happens, more often than not though its because they themselves don't fully understand what's going on and make any old thing up.
Whereas I'd like to win your prize lol, I'm not saying it's anything for definite. If I was there I would start at the beginning and make my way through. I could be a number of things, both fuel issues and everything within that bracket, or something on the control side.

 

[nickocean]

As I said above you seem far more switched on than a lot of so called engineers I know of. I know a couple female oil engineers and they are very good. What part of the country are you if you don't mind me asking?
I completely understand your desire not to be taken for a fool and fed utter Rubbish to get money out of you, unfortunately that happens, more often than not though its because they themselves don't fully understand what's going on and make any old thing up.
Whereas I'd like to win your prize lol, I'm not saying it's anything for definite. If I was there I would start at the beginning and make my way through. I could be a number of things, both fuel issues and everything within that bracket, or something on the control side.

Im Sevenoaks, Orpington way in Kent. This is the problem. If you go into deep Kent there are a lot of experienced oil engineers. But im right up near the M25 where the vast majority are within reach of mains gas. And what with traffic and what not in the South East, basically its a days work. Most of it just in the Van driving. So experienced engineers willing and able to make the trip are few and far between.