Gas hob ID or AR

[Compression nut]

Evening everyone

LLGSC on a gas hob in a basement. No FSD abe of the control nobs had seized. Cut and capped, Immediately Dangerous warning notice issued.

A colleague says it should be AR and has phoned gas safe who also agree with him.

I have quoted the unsafe procedures on what grounds I have done this to my mate. I won’t say which one at the moment as I’m curious am I reading the good book wrong or am I right.

any opinions much appreciated

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Was it leaking gas ?

 

[cjg]

gas hob in a basement. No FSD one of the control nobs had seized. Cut and capped
you covered your ar** id,

 

[Compression nut]

Was it leaking gas ?

No, mate

 

[Compression nut]

i know unsafe procedures can’t give you every scenario and it’s down to your judgement but when I cut and capped the gas hob it’s was with below in mind

I believe it comes under section 7.4 appliance gas controls and safety devices that effect the safe operation of an appliance, which are inoperative, failing to danger, or are disabled. Classed as ID

having no fsd (obviously not helpful if someone does turn it on without realising) is not the issue it’s the fact that the gas control is seized/inoperative when me and him were talking he still reckons its AR and will ring gas safe again

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ar then as it wasn’t leaking

 

[Compression nut]

Ar then as it wasn’t leaking

Hi Shaun thanks for the reply. my point is that I would class a control nob on a hob as a gas control. If it’s seized I would say thats inoperative so if I follow reg 7.4 thats ID

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If it’s seized open then yes it’s id but as it’s not it’s at risk of someone opening it so ar

 

[Compression nut]

again thanks for your input Shaun but that situation 7.4 does not make the distinction between if the gas control is open or closed. It just states if it’s inoperative mate. im going to stick with My ID classification, cheers for help

 

[IND_Nick]

Definitely ID for me. I agree with your explanation and my understanding is if any user control on a gas hob/fire is inoperable/seized it should be capped. Essentially you have a gas appliance that is not working to the manufacturers requirements.

 

[Compression nut]

Definitely ID for me. I agree with your explanation and my understanding is if any user control on a gas hob/fire is inoperable/seized it should be capped. Essentially you have a gas appliance that is not working to the manufacturers requirements.

Just phoned up gas safe and had what I thought a reasonable conversation regarding above. The technical advisor told me it was ncs at first. when I said what about section 7.4 under appliances he started screamng at me and put the put the phone on me.

 

[Ric2013]

Just phoned up gas safe and had what I thought a reasonable conversation regarding above. The technical advisor told me it was ncs at first. when I said what about section 7.4 under appliances he started screamng at me and put the put the phone on me.

Did you catch his name?

 

[Compression nut]

Did you catch his name?

No, as he kept reminding me it was a recorded line, I said good as I certainly wasn’t being abusive, raising my voice. He didn’t like the fact that I was asking difficult questions that he was unable to answer re 7.4, he did say we got a lot of calls regarding the above situation and the office has decided that it’s ncs. I presume my mate phoned the same office 24 hrs ago, he was told AR.

He really lost it when I said politely well it might be an idea to clarify this situation with a bulletin or when unsafe procedures are updated put a note in. Like what they have done with cooker. If a gas appliance is unstable its AR, note says exception of cookers

this is when he Scottish accent increased in intensity and pitch....

 

[WC1]

Foi / dpa request for the call recording?

 

[cjg]

ncs, went out with noahs ark, it was used a lot of time as a get out, make YOUR choice id or ar.
if in doubt id. you have covered your self, capped. if some one else makes it ar then if it goes it*s up it not you gas safe is after.

 

[Compression nut]

Foi / dpa request for the call recording?

QUOTE]
I was going to complain but he was just having a bad day. It has made me think that their technical will not give a definitive answer to any question.

As rgi the ultimate decision and responsibility lies with us (and rightly so) but if you ring up to discuss a situation. All you get is being reminded that the call is being recorded (fine, no issue with that) and constantly reminded that its the rgi decision on what to do. So what exactly is the point of the technical helpline if they are unwilling to give a clear answer!?

For a technical advisor to get the job surely they have received training, maybe it was necessary to pass an exam. So what is the secret. I'm sure their are rgi that have come across the above situation before me. So what is the definitive answer and why isn't it published so all can benefit. Many scenarios could be recorded on a pdf for engineers to access and give a clear answer

 

[Compression nut]

ncs, went out with noahs ark, it was used a lot of time as a get out, make YOUR choice id or ar.
if in doubt id. you have covered your self, capped. if some one else makes it ar then if it goes it*s up it not you gas safe is after.

Yes your right, that's my point why is a technical advisor is saying its classified as ncs! my mate rung yesterday and another one said its at risk!

Your saying its ar or id.

How about we look at the unsafe procedures and apply what is written their instead of just deciding what's Best?

I certainly feel I can't rely on the helpline to give an answer so what's the point of the helpline, make us feel good, talk about the situation and come to an understanding that suits everybody. I thought we had dr Phil for that!

Whats the harm of recoding a decision so every rgi can get clear guidance, save clogging up the helpline.

Gas hob, control nob broken = ID
Gas appliances unstable = ar note* unless gas cooker

 

[Aquarius]

Ncs still exists, just not in unsafe situations procedure. Is the hob NG or LPG? User control not a safety control, so imo ncs. Gas safe explained it to me: the user can take a knob from another one and light a burner that way. If you’re that concerned contact IGEM as they now issue the unsafe situations procedure, not gas safe.

 

[Last Plumber]

Another one with @Aquarius here!
NCS. (still exists).

If this is a NG appliance (not 3rd family gas) it is allowed in a basement with the correct/adequate ventilation.

If it has no FFD built into it (normally due to the time it was manufactured) then it is not to current standards as today's appliances would have that facility. If they were not there due to that then this is not something which must be done/fitted retrospectively.

If the knob/valve is seized, in the closed position and not leaking gas then it is not constituting a danger to life or property.

I understand your views on 7.4 but if a manually operated valve on a cooker is seized off and not leaking, then it is not affecting the safe operation of a gas appliance in my opinion.

This is just the way I view the scenario you described and I thought it might help to hear a different point of view. Obviously it would be safer with FFD's and it is advisable to have the gas tap repaired or replaced but that decision is for the owners/responsible persons after hearing your advice.

Did you ask permission to disconnect the appliance or did you cap it anyway? You/we have no legal right to disconnect a gas appliance without the permission of the owner or responsible person.

 

[cjg]

I stand corrected, but will stick to covering my ars*

Not to Current Standards – a reminder from Gas Safe Register​

3RD SEPTEMBER 2019

What is it, what isn’t it, and should you record it? Gas Safe Register’s Technical Team provides clarification.
Major changes to the Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure (GIUSP) came into effect in July 2016. The single message of Danger Do Not Use helps your customers understand when appliances must not be used.
GIUSP is now owned by IGEM, under the title G/11 – Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure. However, there is still confusion regarding the removal of Not to Current Standards (NCS) from the procedure.
We’re aware that some gas engineers believe that it has been banned or abolished as a classification; that people should no longer use the words; or that what was NCS is now At Risk (AR), etc.
A number of changes were made in Edition 7 of the GIUSP (now called IGEM G/11). The most notable and misunderstood of these is the removal of the NCS classification from the guidance.
NCS situations were removed to reflect the fact that an NCS is, by its very nature, NOT unsafe – and therefore has no place in an Unsafe Situations Procedure. The installation may not be correct, or not in accordance with the standards, but it is not unsafe. If your risk assessment is that the appliance is unsafe, it wouldn’t be classified as NCS anyway.
Many engineers will have encountered the scenario where, upon entering a house, the consumer says they know ‘the installation is not to current standards’ before you have even had a chance to look at it. This demonstrates that the NCS was diluting the safety message to the public. This is because, in the same situation, you might find a genuine AR or ID unsafe situation, but the consumer is already so blasé about the raft of information had been given previously that they do not fully appreciate the severity of what you are now advising them.
Removing NCS from the procedure does not prevent an engineer from informing their customer that the installation requirements have now changed, but the appliance is safe. If you wish to continue advising your customers that the appliance installation requirements are now different, then this should not be recorded on any warning notices or safety-related paperwork/documentation. This will ensure that the key safety messages are not detracted from. It is your choice whether you elect to do this, based on the situation at hand and any benefits it may bring.
In conclusion, NCS has not been banned/abolished/forbidden; it has simply been removed from the Unsafe Situations Procedure.
Installations that were previously assessed to be NCS are still NCS now – just because the term is no longer featured in the GIUSP does not mean the level of danger/risk has increased. To be told otherwise is a myth.
The other misconception because of the removal of NCS from the GIUSP is that it is ‘OK’ to install something that is not in accordance with the current standards. This is incorrect. Regardless of the removal of the NCS criteria, it does not mean that an installation can be completed that does not comply with standards in place, or the appliance manufacturer’s installation instructions or (where referred to by the appliance instructions), the relevant gas industry standard. Where this is found to be the case, then Gas Safe Register will continue to defect the installation in line with our current procedures.
Some engineers may have received an inspection from Gas Safe Register in which it has been noted that the phrase ‘Not to Current Standards’ is used on inspection reports when encountering defects that do not fall within the AR or ID category. Gas Safe Register continues to use the defect category NCS to highlight defects on installations that do not comply with the current standards so that Gas Safe can ensure that these defects are properly addressed by the business to which they are attributable – you cannot install something that is not to the current standards.
• You can download GIUSP free by logging into your online account at www.gassaferegister.co.uk/sign-in/ or from IGEM https://www.igem.org.uk/technical-services/technical-standards/general-standards/igem-g-11-gas-industry-unsafe-situations-procedure/
In summary
The Not to Current Standards (NCS) category was removed from GIUSP because, by definition, these situations are not unsafe. As a registered business, you may still record NCS situations, but this no longer forms part of the official Unsafe Situations Procedure.
Note: NCS installations are NOT At Risk.
hope that clears things up. my bad .

 

[Compression nut]

Another one with @Aquarius here!
NCS. (still exists).

If this is a NG appliance (not 3rd family gas) it is allowed in a basement with the correct/adequate ventilation.

If it has no FFD built into it (normally due to the time it was manufactured) then it is not to current standards as today's appliances would have that facility. If they were not there due to that then this is not something which must be done/fitted retrospectively.

If the knob/valve is seized, in the closed position and not leaking gas then it is not constituting a danger to life or property.

I understand your views on 7.4 but if a manually operated valve on a cooker is seized off and not leaking, then it is not affecting the safe operation of a gas appliance in my opinion.

This is just the way I view the scenario you described and I thought it might help to hear a different point of view. Obviously it would be safer with FFD's and it is advisable to have the gas tap repaired or replaced but that decision is for the owners/responsible persons after hearing your advice.

Did you ask permission to disconnect the appliance or did you cap it anyway? You/we have no legal right to disconnect a gas appliance without the permission of the owner or responsible person.

Hi

apologies should have made it clear it’s natural gas. Thanks everyone for all your input.

yes I asked permission and it was granted. Forgive me for saying and not picking on anybody here but 7.4 does not make any distinction if it’s leaking gas or not. Other unsafe procedures do. It simply states gas control and safety devices inoperative = ID

i have had 2 technical advisors, 1 advised me NCS And yes I’m aware that does not apply anymore on cp12 but of course new gas appliances have to be fitted to standard.

the other technical advisor 24 hours earlier advised my colleague that it’s AR.

ok let’s just saythe technical advisors one of them Or both of them may have made a mistake. No big‘ee because as rgi it’s our decision and we are ultimately responsible and will be the first ones that have explain our actions if something goes wrong. Forget about recorded telephone conversations with technical advisors these can’t be relied on.

I don’t want have to tell a tenant the following regarding this hob

look mate the control nob on your cooker is broken, it’s about 20 years old. What you can do is pull off a working nob and change it round the broken one.

Just be careful that it doesn’t leak gas, your not an rgi so you haven’t got the equipment to confirm this so just use your nose. Remember though that you’ve turned on the other hob ring using the borrowed control nob so that might be the cause of the smell of gas. Once you’ve got the hob ring lit that you wanted, if the other hob ring comes alight that you didn’t want . pull off the control nob stick back on the one and turn off the gas.

now don’t drop the control nob whatever you do, it’s a big basement flat and the gas in air rate is 5 to 15% to go kappow so you will have plenty of time. You can turn off the gas at the meter but that may annoy the landlord as his gas hob hasn’t got this problem and he might be cooking his tea. Or use a phillips screwdriver, unscrew 2screws and lift out the electric cooker, careful don’t drop it on your foot. And theirs an isolation valve.

don’t look so worried pal, im ignoring unsafe procedures 7.4 cos I phoned up gas safe, they record all the telephone conversations and they told me its perfectly acceptable. Anyway its not their fault as they don’t make the rules. I’m going to leave you now as I’m putting all my faith inthat telephone chat and if something goes wrong I’m covered.

joking aside lads
thanks for all your reply’s, I think this threads exhausted now but I will always encourage a landlord to cut and cap, if this comes up again in the next 25 years iwould definitely ar regardless

 

[Ric2013]

Actually that last post has now changed the state of play regarding the seized control knob and I think it makes a material difference.

Previously I had the impression that one gas tap was seized and it was unable to be turned on. Personally, as a non-RGI, I agree this is at least AR as potentially someone manages to free it and turn it on and then it potentially sticks open.

Now I have the impression that all the gas taps work, but one has a knob missing. While I agree absolutely that the last thing you want is the end user making a habit of swapping control knobs about, I think the situation is rather different.

 

[Compression nut]

Actually that last post has now changed the state of play regarding the seized control knob and I think it makes a material difference.

Previously I had the impression that one gas tap was seized and it was unable to be turned on. Personally, as a non-RGI, I agree this is at least AR as potentially someone manages to free it and turn it on and then it potentially sticks open.

Now I have the impression that all the gas taps work, but one has a knob missing. While I agree absolutely that the last thing you want is the end user making a habit of swapping control knobs about, I think the situation is rather different.

Sorry my bad not making it clear.

This gas Hob has 4 burners, and all 4 control nobs are present. One control nob i was unable to turn. Very old hob as no ffd (which is just extra info and is acceptable for age of hob)

I’m their to do a cp12 only nothing else. I am very careful not to turn it to hard as it’s old and the plastic nob may break, happened to me before. So most probably you could strip down the gas cock and give it some molly to grease it up, careful not to block ports. Everything else is is fine with the rest of the installation.

 

[Aquarius]

I’m their to do a cp12 only nothing else.

CP12 aka lgsr/lgsc - surely if unable to turn, still only notifiable?

 

[Compression nut]

CP12 aka lgsr/lgsc - surely if unable to turn, still only notifiable?

Hi mate

sorry mate my interpretation of 7.4 is if gas control is inoperative = ID. My train of thought is the nob is unable to turn the gas cock inside the hob, I’m classing the gas cock as a gas control. As the gas cock is seized up I’m classing that as inoperative So I ID the gas hob.

Gas safe don’t agree with me and most rgi on here don’t. I’m getting mixed messages from the technical helpline.

im happy with my decision. I hope this scenario underlines the importance of making your own decisions as rgi as you are responsible and will have to give a good account of your thoughts processes and decision making process and why you decided to make safe or not as is the case.

if something awful happened you may be involved in an investigation. Saying I was told this by the technical helpline that’s it’s ok and relying on a recorded conversation may not help you. You are the person with the training, qualifications, insurance and made that decision that you will have to explain to a higher authority if it goes wrong.

Again insurance may not cover you if they believe you acted in the wrong and you will have to fund any defence yourself.

I try my best to read the rules, understand and apply them. I have a healthy dose of self preservation and hopefully common sense. If I don’t think that is not the correct course of action, no matter what technical helpline says or a forum. I’m going to err on the side of caution as at the end of the day I fully realise if it all goes wrong the rgi is in the firing line first and foremost

im off for a beer, have a great wknd