Gas Inspector (and me) got it wrong!!!

[princegoose]

I mention in another post that I had to AR a Boiler while doing a landlords gas safety check in front of the GS inspector. While doing the visual checks he told me to look at the flue and asked me to tell him what was wrong. Of course I didnt get it straight away but guessed it was too close to the door (less that 300mm).

The landlord was very unhappy and was trying to convince me id got it wrong.

So to prove myself right I went back and measured the distance of the flue from the door.

it was bang on 300mm. egg on my face.

there is a brick gate post too close to it which Id class as an internal corner, but that can be knocked down easily, so will get to do a cp-12 pass next week once its done.

would the 'too close to internal corner' AR the boiler as well?

Should I tell the inspector? tbh I didnt measure the flue distance while he was there as I thought it was less than 300mm too.

 

[CMairiD]

When you AR'd the boiler ... was it simply because it was within in 300mm? Or did you have other factors such as poor FGA readings, reports fumes from the tenant or evidence of POCs entering the building?

 

[GrahamM]

If its an existing install and all combustion check are ok and it is not too close to external/internal corner (bit of a judgement call) then at worst it NCS. Only if its a recent install would it be AR.

 

[princegoose]

nope, just distance of flue from door. fga was 0.0003%, well within. tenant said thered never been a problem.

why?

 

[princegoose]

If its an existing install and all combustion check are ok and it is not too close to external corner (bit of a judgement call) then at worst it NCS. Only if its a recent install would it be AR.

really??? has it changed recently? because on my life the GS inspector said it its AR.

 

[Blake]

I would class this as NCS myself and note it on my cert. I often come across borderline flue to door openings/window openings and if I AR each one I'd be forever filling out forms and would have tons of unhappy landlords.

I was always led to believe that two or more faults on flueing and ventilation was then classed as AR or ID depending on the situation.

 

[kirkgas]

it hasnt changed as others have said, but a flue 299mm from a brick cant be AR, (i assume you did measure from the edge of the flue and not the edge of the air intake, ) have seen some do that, it wwill only be AR if it is too close and has scorched a combustible surface, i appreciate the dimension must be adhered to but common sense has to prevail, someone clever decided it needs to be 300mm but the safety factor will have been built in to this dimension so just under 300 to a brick must only be NCS surely

 

[princegoose]

it hasnt changed as others have said, but a flue 299mm from a brick cant be AR, (i assume you did measure from the edge of the flue and not the edge of the air intake, ) have seen some do that, it wwill only be AR if it is too close and has scorched a combustible surface, i appreciate the dimension must be adhered to but common sense has to prevail, someone clever decided it needs to be 300mm but the safety factor will have been built in to this dimension so just under 300 to a brick must only be NCS surely

it was 300mm to the opening of the door, but less than 20mm to the brick post, which potruded less than a soil stack (half brick), but i figured it would more likely be classed as a corner, as everyone wants to cover their back.....

 

[princegoose]

it hasnt changed as others have said, but a flue 299mm from a brick cant be AR, (i assume you did measure from the edge of the flue and not the edge of the air intake, ) have seen some do that, it wwill only be AR if it is too close and has scorched a combustible surface, i appreciate the dimension must be adhered to but common sense has to prevail, someone clever decided it needs to be 300mm but the safety factor will have been built in to this dimension so just under 300 to a brick must only be NCS surely

I was taught it has to be from air intake not flue. Is this a case of MI in some cases?

 

[Reg Man]

May be the inspector made a engineering Judgement call.

Refer to industry unsafe sits proceedure, section 8 page 38.
8.3: Covered passage way or carport or the like AR.
8.4: Close proximity to doors and windows. Carry out an assessment using ECGA to BS7967, If it fails ID.
8.5: To close to boundaries ect NCS.

Measurement must be taken from the outer edge of the flue terminal. On a concentric flue this is from the edge of the air intake at the terminal. Also refer to BS5440 Part 1 Appedices C table C2. Input of boiler relative to distance from opening. Manufacturer instructions have the over riding requirement though.

 

[GrahamM]

I would class this as NCS myself and note it on my cert. I often come across borderline flue to door openings/window openings and if I AR each one I'd be forever filling out forms and would have tons of unhappy landlords.

I was always led to believe that two or more faults on flueing and ventilation was then classed as AR or ID depending on the situation.

It is at individuals discretion/interpretation wither multiple NCS's should warrant being elevated to an 'AR' classification. A couple of minor flue/ventilation NCS's does not automatically mean 'AR'.

it was 300mm to the opening of the door, but less than 20mm to the brick post, which potruded less than a soil stack (half brick), but i figured it would more likely be classed as a corner, as everyone wants to cover their back.....

Being overcautious is almost as bad as not being thorough enough. You should be making a call based on facts and regulations. Unfortunately, most of the regs are not black & white. You have to interpret them to the best of your ability and make your call. If in doubt seek advice. Back up your findings on paperwork.

it hasnt changed as others have said, but a flue 299mm from a brick cant be AR, (i assume you did measure from the edge of the flue and not the edge of the air intake, ) have seen some do that, it wwill only be AR if it is too close and has scorched a combustible surface, i appreciate the dimension must be adhered to but common sense has to prevail, someone clever decided it needs to be 300mm but the safety factor will have been built in to this dimension so just under 300 to a brick must only be NCS surely

A concentric flue is a unit and any measurements should be taken to the outside of the flue in my opinion.

 

[smillsey]

Also, if customer complains of fumes/plumbing etc etc coming into property it would effect NCS/AR outcome... Due to the close proximity to the door/window

 

[royston]

Strange that but i was taught at collage last year that 2 NCS s on fluing and ventilation should be upgraded to AR.

 

[GrahamM]

Strange that but i was taught at collage last year that 2 NCS s on fluing and ventilation should be upgraded to AR.

Think about it!
So, flue 1900mm high with no terminal guard and flue 290mm from window instead of MI's stated 300mm automatically means 'AR'. Even though all safety checks pass. You were taught to be overcautious.

Unsafe sits maps it out for ye. Only if you decide the multiple NCS's are serious enough would it be upgraded to 'AR'.

 

[CMairiD]

Thought multiple NCS = AR on flue & ventilation applied to OF, not RS.

 

[smillsey]

Use common sense, if you AR stuff all the time on minute little details like 12mm to close to opening, and 7mm too close to ground, with no signs of any problems...

then you arent not using engineering judgement at all. You are just following a procedure, we are paid to make decisions

Like Graham says

 

[Reg Man]

QUOTE:Thought multiple NCS = AR on flue & ventilation applied to OF, not RS.

QUOTE:Use common sense, if you AR stuff all the time on minute little details like 12mm to close to opening, and 7mm too close to ground, with no signs of any problems... then you arent not using engineering judgement at all. You are just following a procedure, we are paid to make decisions

Back you both up on this one. There is no stacking of NCS to AR on roomsealed. Loads of RS terminals are fitted to near openings, just have to use judgement. If your not sure, do combustion and ambient air tests and record down your results. Generally you know the ones that have to go off.

 

[cdodds2004]

on worcester boilers you measure from innner flue not air intake was told this from the horses mouth

 

[kirkgas]

on worcester boilers you measure from innner flue not air intake was told this from the horses mouth

by definition of the nature of the risk is what i based my statement on, ok it is just a theoretical question but it makes a difference to which box you tick " is flue termination satisfactory YES or NO " the danger is where the POC's exit the building not where the air goes in, yes it is called a concentric flue, and you buy a flue assembly and you ask the apprentice to hand you the flue, but it is still a flue and an air intake assembly, if it was measured from the outer pipe then this would also effect the judgement on the positioning of a twin flue assembly (another misnomer or is it? as one pipe is a flue and one an air intake)

 

[cdodds2004]

I always used to measure from outside better to be safe than sorry! But the Worcester tech told me outer i's just a air intake and inner is flue for poc's so to measure from there! I think it's one of them were common sense prevails and a a qualified engineer will see if there i's a

 

[stevetheplumber]

surely common sense has been declared an unsafe practice in these days of constant worry over litigation