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stewarty

Hi folks looked at a boiler change today combi to combi!existing boiler is supplied in 15mm.It is supplied from meter in 22 for about 6m into kitchen then 22x15x15 to four burner cooker then 2.5m to boiler.put u gauge on at boiler and operated dhw at max and all four rings on cooker on and got 17.5mbar.would the existing gas pipe be adequate for ideal logic 30 which has a 15mm connection?existing boiler is a vokera 80 excell sp.
 
What was the working pressure at the meter?
didnt take working pressure at meter.Got 23 mbar as an inlet pressure at existing gas valve on boiler.

so whats the issue to swap a length of 22mm to be sure?
the issue is a brand new kitchen and new laminate floor,typical hence my problem.
 
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why not complete the required pipe sizing calculations for the appliances installed, that way you cant go wrong, its not very clever to ask us if its ok when there are set regs laid down to ensure you install in a safe and legal manner. the new laminate floor etc isnt your problem at the end of the day is it
 
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why not complete the required pipe sizing calculations for the appliances installed, that way you cant go wrong, its not very clever to ask us if its ok when there are set regs laid down to ensure you install in a safe and legal manner. the new laminate floor etc isnt your problem at the end of the day is it
fair enough old man thought i would just get some topical conversation going as i am a new member,taken your point on board!
 
didnt take working pressure at meter.Got 23 mbar as an inlet pressure at existing gas valve on boiler.


the issue is a brand new kitchen and new laminate floor,typical hence my problem.

you got 23mb standing or working pressure at old boiler??as standing pressure is a bit of a pointless exercise when determining if pipework is ok
you need to test working pressure to have any idea 17.5mb sounds too low as worcester combis have a min operating pressure of 18mb if needed you will have to carcass externally
 
Silence as another appliance is gas starved when the chicken goes in on gas mark 7!
CCN1 its all in there u have to be able to use it or u will be leaving ID;s everywhere.
Have a read up and then work it out and post and i think u will find alot of people on here will help u double check the stats but to expect others to do the job doesnt show competance! and iam not implying that your not! we all need help and support at times but u have to take the first steps.
 
you need to test working pressure to have any idea 17.5mb sounds too low as worcester combis have a min operating pressure of 18mb if needed you will have to carcass externally

I seem to remember a TB issued on WB condensing boilers saying that you could see a low as 16.5mbar at the test point on the air/gas valve. 19 (at the meter) - 1 (for the pipework) - up to 1.5 across internal iso valve/boiler pipework = 16.5 at gas valve test point.
 
I seem to remember a TB issued on WB condensing boilers saying that you could see a low as 16.5mbar at the test point on the air/gas valve. 19 (at the meter) - 1 (for the pipework) - up to 1.5 across internal iso valve/boiler pipework = 16.5 at gas valve test point.

It was in TB115
 
You should work to the known acceptable standards usually 20mbar and no lower than 19mbar at the appliance inlet after temperature stabilisation and checks for control valve let-by.

If the pipe sizing is okay, but you still get a drop then a check for partial blockages is probably required.

Lets be honest, we all know what the recommended inlet pressure should be, why isn't it?

If inlet pressures are over or up around the likes of 25 mbar, I would check the meter
for governor lock-up. If its low on the meter outlet with appliances working I would check for meter sizing. An appliance inlet pressure of 23 mbar does seem high to me. On certain appliances you may get lift-off.

But these although not in proper order or full procedure are all part of the everyday standard tests everybody should do.
 
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thing is bernie the operating pressure at the meter is allowed to be as low as 19mb so 18mb at appliance is ok and on a busy meter it is even allowed lower
my new boiler is allowed to be as low as 15mb and will still operate at correct burn ratio on max input
regs are becoming a bit dated with the new technology as the new burners become so much more efficient and the mi overides the gas regs anyway
technology changes the rules so fast these days with regard to boilers obv if your cooker/fire has low pressure they are not quite so clever and problems will occur here ie i wouldnt want a cooker/fire working on 15mb

any appliance at 23mb inlet i would look at meter as assuming 1mb drop the meter would be seeing 24mb which is outside of parameters,i called transco for this reason as i was seeing 24mb at the boiler inlet working pressure and then also found a leak on the meter
 
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my new boiler is allowed to be as low as 15mb and will still operate at correct burn ratio on max input

I sat through a recent presentation from Ideal on the Logic range and they confirmed the same.
 
The working pressure across a meter should not drop below 1.25mbar its inlet pressure.

Most U6 meter governors are sealed at 21mbar, so the outlet pressure on the meter should be about 21mbar.

The service pipe pressure to the inlet of the meter governor can be as high as 75mbar.

So it would seem to follow, anything less than about 21 mbar on the meter outlet signifies a possible problem with the governor.

I would guess, possibly a slight chock on the governor filter or a faulty governor.

Any system that shows less than 20mbar at the inlet to all its appliances is usually classed as sub standard and depending on the degree of drop possibly dangerous.

Most modern boilers are modulating, so they can work on pressures far lower than 20mbar. But 20mbar should be the installation design pressure at each appliance regardless of what pressure the appliance asks for.

So knock off pipe resistance allowance of max 1 mbar, means 20mbar at the appliance.
 
The working pressure across a meter should not drop below 1.25mbar its inlet pressure.
4mb depending on load
Most U6 meter governors are sealed at 21mbar, so the outlet pressure on the meter should be about 21mbar.
21mb + or - 2mb
The service pipe pressure to the inlet of the meter governor can be as high as 75mbar.
200mb (medium pressure)
So it would seem to follow, anything less than about 21 mbar on the meter outlet signifies a possible problem with the governor.
Not always
I would guess, possibly a slight chock on the governor filter or a faulty governor.
The supplier is only legally required to supply 19mb to ECV (21 + or - 2)
Any system that shows less than 20mbar at the inlet to all its appliances is usually classed as sub standard and depending on the degree of drop possibly dangerous.
I'll agree somewhat on this point, depending on drop
Most modern boilers are modulating, so they can work on pressures far lower than 20mbar. But 20mbar should be the installation design pressure at each appliance regardless of what pressure the appliance asks for.

So knock off pipe resistance allowance of max 1 mbar, means 20mbar at the appliance.
19 (at ecv) - 4 (through meter) - 1 (on pipework) =14 -1.5 through appliance = 12.5?
The above is an extreme example but the manus have to allow for an inlet pressure of 19 - 1 for pipework - drop through their appliance. Read TB115 if you can get in to it.
Working pressure should be recorded at both the meter and appliance. If your findings are low, advice should be sought from the manu's and their advice followed.
BTW most cookers and fires and also the standing pilot on boilers (regardless of burner pressure) require 21mb + or - !
 
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I would check the figure's if somebody is telling you a 4mbar drop is okay over a meter.

The mains pressure you talk about of 200mbar is of course depending on the sort of main your tapped into High, Medium or Low. We are talking average and that is said to be 75mbar usually. I feel sure no responsible gas supplier would really want 200mbar pressure in a domestic gas service pipe and the higher pressures would seem more appropriate to transport mains not domestic service pipes.

The thing is, if we start accepting lower gas pressures the next step is that people may think they can use under sized piping.

Have a look at British Standards BS 6891 or the copper club Gas pipe sizing PDF based on BS 6891.

The idea of a gas installation is very much the same as an electrical ring main. You should be able to plug in to it anywhere and get 20 mbar regardless of what you plug in. The electrical ring main works the same way.
Its 13 Amp at the sockets, governed down by the plug top fuse in roughly the same way as a gas appliance can be governed down either by a gas valve, appliance governor or orifice size.

The socket you use should not exceed 13 Amps loading. But you can plug anything below 13 Amp in. Gas is the same idea. In point, in the old days, there where gas points just like electrical sockets in nearly every room of a house as well as gas lighting.

However I feel all this confusion over standards could be avoided if they published the Gas Regs, British Standards and Guides to them, like they do the Building Regulations, free for anybody interested to down load.

What people do with that knowledge is up to them. If they decide to break the law and use the knowledge to make money, that is a moral and social value problem, not a gas fitting problem. So free knowledge should not cause anybody any problem, but instead perhaps help many.
 
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I would check the figure's if somebody is telling you a 4mbar drop is okay over a meter.
That would be the Meter manufacturers.
The mains pressure you talk about of 200mbar is of course depending on the sort of main your tapped into High, Medium or Low. We are talking average and that is said to be 75mbar usually. I feel sure no responsible gas supplier would really want 200mbar pressure in a domestic gas service pipe and the higher pressures would seem more appropriate to transport mains not domestic service pipes..
Most services are low pressure, ie <75mb (usually nearer 30) but there are many areas around the country where the domestic service to the regulator is medium pressure ie < or = 2bar
The thing is, if we start accepting lower gas pressures the next step is that people may think they can use under sized piping.
Pipes should always be sized to give max 1mb drop as BS6891, regardless of pressure at meter.
Have a look at British Standards BS 6891 or the copper club Gas pipe sizing PDF based on BS 6891.
I know how to do pipe sizing.
The idea of a gas installation is very much the same as an electrical ring main. You should be able to plug in to it anywhere and get 20 mbar regardless of what you plug in. The electrical ring main works the same way.
Its 13 Amp at the sockets, governed down by the plug top fuse in roughly the same way as a gas appliance can be governed down either by a gas valve, appliance governor or orifice size.

The socket you use should not exceed 13 Amps loading. But you can plug anything below 13 Amp in. Gas is the same idea. In point, in the old days, there where gas points just like electrical sockets in nearly every room of a house as well as gas lighting.
Gas pipe sizing cannot be compared to a ring main. It is a totally different concept.
The pipe is sized for the load with an allowance for further additions if required. Even if a 22mm was run throughout to every appliance, there are occasions where this would be undersized. That is why each pipe has to be sized to suit the load.

However I feel all this confusion over standards could be avoided if they published the Gas Regs, British Standards and Guides to them, like they do the Building Regulations, free for anybody interested to down load.
The British and IGEM standards are available to all, at a price. There is not some big secret from the public. Even registered installers have to buy them.
I wish they would make them free as it would save me a couple of grand every few years updating them but i cannot see that happening in the near future.
The information contained in them is sometimes quite hard to interpret, even for professionals, so they would perhaps be of little use to the layman. The Viper books and suchlike are easier to follow but again, quite rightly as they are a commercial operation, they come at a price.

What people do with that knowledge is up to them. If they decide to break the law and use the knowledge to make money, that is a moral and social value problem, not a gas fitting problem. So free knowledge should not cause anybody any problem, but instead perhaps help many.
There is an old saying, A little knowledge is a dangerous thing:)
 
Hi! Tamz

I would not advocate using pipework that could lead to under gassing by anybody.

The theory is simple. Makes sure you get enough gas to the appliance, you can always reduce it down when it gets there, but you have to re-pipe to get it up.

You will have noticed that most gas appliances ask for 20mb inlet pressure. You have to pipe size properly to get that. Which basically means increasing or decreasing the supply pipe size. But I would not advocate a position where you only piped up in the size required for the current appliance. That would possibly mean having to re-pipe every time you upgraded or extended the system. A very costly business indeed.

You have to make allowance for future extension in your pipe sizing.

As to the meter pressure, well as I have said, most domestic U6 meters have a set governor sealed at 21mbar.

So the inlet to a meter usually has a set 21mbar pressure, it depends on the drop over he meter as to what the outlet pressure is. But BS reckon a max drop of 1.25 mbar dynamic. That means a minimum of 19.75 mbar at outlet or near enough 20 mbar.

You are allowed only a 1 mbar drop over your pipework system, so a minimum of 19 mbar at the appliance inlet.

I have never heard of 12.5 mbar at an appliance inlet being acceptable. Certainly heard of appliances working on less than 12.5 mbar though.

And certainly never a 4 mbar drop over a U6 diaphragm meter. Schlumbergers usually seem to be less than 1 mbar. Which would give a standing outlet pressure from a 21 mbar governor of slightly over 20 mbar. They can also have a maximum inlet pressure of 75mbar, so it would seem best not to have a service pipe pressure of 200 mbar as somebody said some service pipes have in case of governor lock up. And imagine what even 75 mbar over pressure would do to the house appliances?

The underlying principle is 20mbar at appliance inlet, just the same as it is for 13 amp on a ring main. Don't forget the 1 mbar drop on the pipework is only an allowance it does not mean it should be accepted as normal. In other words if your system is undersized its acceptable to have a pressure loss of 1 mbar not more.

And yes I agree a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, that is why I would advocate making it all free. It should not be just for those who can afford to buy it.
 
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