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AXTENK

Gas Engineer
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Hi all.
What are your thoughts on gas training agreements between employers and employees? Booked in for various re-assessments over a 5 1/2 day period. Company want me to sign agreement to pay back the course fee and their loss of earnings for the 5 1/2 days if I decide to leave within 5 years of the assessments. They are basing loss of earnings on £30 per hour x 44 hours = £1,850. They will pay my wage for the 5 1/2 days [£15 per hour]. Leave within 2 years pay back 100%. 2-3 years 75%. 3-4 years 50%. 4-5 years 25%.
 
Paying back course fees on a reducing scale is not unusual.
Having to pay back lost (company) earnings, that's a neat trick if people fall for it.

Did you start with the company with Quals already?
 
It's in enforceable to take the money back from you from your wages even if signed, they can only take back wage overpayment, if you leave they can send you a letter reminding you of the agreement you signed and asking for you to send a cheque
TBH they are being well greedy asking for loss of profit,
At best and to be fair employees should agree and payback a % of the training and assessment cost if they leave but only within a short time ie 6 months, it's unfair of some guys to wait till they have been out through ACS and hand their notice in the next week, but the firm will have made its money back and some within 6 months


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Not got a problem paying back course fees on a reducing scale or the wages they would pay me for the 5 1/2 days but I think paying them back at £30 per hour x 44 hours is excecive?
 
It's a complete joke when firms do this and if it was looked into properly I'd be inclined to say its probably not legal.

When I worked at the first firm I worked for I wanted to leave after two years and they asked for money back on my quals. So I rang gas safe who told me who had issued my certs, I rang them and got reprints sent to MY HOME ADDRESS for about thirty quid or so.

At the end of the day what use are your certs to a firm? Their just being tossers demanding things like this. It really gave me the hump when they tried to do it to me. It doesnt say a lot about a firm if they put thes types of clauses in place, it almost like they expect you to leave. Tell then they can have their money when you leave thn just do what I did. Easy peasy lemon squesey :)
 
as mentioned by others they have gain 3 years free from yourself, i would agree to sign to say 50% first year and 25% second year and zero from then on. and the amount should be based on the cost of the course and your hourly rate. They are your employers and these costs should be taken into account when quoting for work and you should really not have to pay a penny but its your choice.
 
tell them you will take a week off holiday, pay for resit yourself then charge it to the company say £18 hour over 5 years?
 
good idea Red.

how about week on hoilday, pay for the course yourself and then they pay you £1 an hour or whatever extra............. put that to them and see what they say.

some companys use this type of thing to try and scare you into staying put.
 
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It's a complete joke when firms do this and if it was looked into properly I'd be inclined to say its probably not legal.

When I worked at the first firm I worked for I wanted to leave after two years and they asked for money back on my quals. So I rang gas safe who told me who had issued my certs, I rang them and got reprints sent to MY HOME ADDRESS for about thirty quid or so.

At the end of the day what use are your certs to a firm? Their just being tossers demanding things like this. It really gave me the hump when they tried to do it to me. It doesnt say a lot about a firm if they put thes types of clauses in place, it almost like they expect you to leave. Tell then they can have their money when you leave thn just do what I did. Easy peasy lemon squesey :)


if you agree to the terms laid down by the firm, you have a contract and they can take to small claims to get money back as agreed. however it would be more reasonable to go to them and say ok i'll stay min 3 years and write off 1/3 of tarining costs each year and they have to accept they have to pay you to get reassed and forget loss of profit. You can refuse to agree to their terms as you consider their terms to be an onerous contract and if they let you go then you could go to a tribuneral to claim unfair dismissal, as long as they have employed you for over two years. Having said that if your not looking to change jobs in the next 5 years whats the issue, if you are nows the time to move on!
 
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If you sign it it will be a legally binding contract and they "could" chase you for it.

Here is the std JIB acs contract.
 

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Be very careful with this sort of thing and make sure you put down in writing if you disagree to anything. I was stung when I handed in my notice.

Long story short, my old company paid for my ACS in 2009, I left middle of this year and had my wages withheld and a further bill. I was tricked into signing some dodgy contract as an apprentice, which was doctored. I could have fought it and not payed anything, but I had no energy left to fight and just wanted to move on.

But I was told by several employment solicitors that no matter what was written on a contract, it had to be deemed fair and I was told that any sort of terms after 24 months probably wouldn't be enforceable!

Check your company policy on contracts, it usually states that if you don't object in writing to a contract within 14 days, its as good as signing it!
 
Be very careful with this sort of thing and make sure you put down in writing if you disagree to anything. I was stung when I handed in my notice.

Long story short, my old company paid for my ACS in 2009, I left middle of this year and had my wages withheld and a further bill. I was tricked into signing some dodgy contract as an apprentice, which was doctored. I could have fought it and not payed anything, but I had no energy left to fight and just wanted to move on.

But I was told by several employment solicitors that no matter what was written on a contract, it had to be deemed fair and I was told that any sort of terms after 24 months probably wouldn't be enforceable!

Check your company policy on contracts, it usually states that if you don't object in writing to a contract within 14 days, its as good as signing it!

it is illegal to withold a persons wages for such an agreement. A persons wages can only be stopped for a few things which would written in a standard contract of employement, and any stoppages need to be notified in advance to be legal also.

So anybody who's company does this should stick up for themselves and demand to be treated as the law requires.
 
If you sign it it will be a legally binding contract and they "could" chase you for it.


thats a common misconception tom.

actually in contract law it doesnt matter what you sign upto, the law draws the line at statutory rights.

for example if you sign upto a contract such as that in question and it transpired that the company was in the wrong and the contract contravened your statutory rights the fact that you signed would not mean anything. to protect idiots it is not permitted to sign away statutory rights.

example 2, idiot in employment has statutory rights of 4 weeks hols a year, signs contract to say he will accept only two weeks. contract is null and void and company gets fined.

obviously the op needs advice as to the legality of what the employer is saying.if it is unlawful i would suggest he signs to keep employer sweet then leave when it suits him as he is protected...
 
it is illegal to withold a persons wages for such an agreement. A persons wages can only be stopped for a few things which would written in a standard contract of employement, and any stoppages need to be notified in advance to be legal also.

So anybody who's company does this should stick up for themselves and demand to be treated as the law requires.

I know this, I was in a bad place mentally and emotionally when I left the company, I was close to a breakdown, so I had no energy for a legal battle. I cut my losses and moved on.
 
it is illegal to withold a persons wages for such an agreement. A persons wages can only be stopped for a few things which would written in a standard contract of employement, and any stoppages need to be notified in advance to be legal also.

So anybody who's company does this should stick up for themselves and demand to be treated as the law requires.

Hi AW.

Whilst it is true that there are very tight rules about withholding wages, that doesn't mean that you haven't signed a contract, which may still be enforceable. Its just that the employer would have to go to court to enforce it, rather than withhold from wages. Whether they would bother would probably depend on the amount of money at stake, and how much time had elapsed.

We have training agreements similar to this, but usually only make use of them if the training is something that the employee requests, rather than the company requiring. I don't think thats unreasonable - in some cases we have laid out £thousands for professional qualifications which will benefit the employee for the rest of their lives, and I don't see why we shouldnt protect that investment. Its just a question of being reasonable and balanced about it, and above all, agreeing it in writing at the outset. We have never had to enforce one, but we would if we felt that an employee was taking the micky.
 
When you work for a company you think
This kind of contract is wrong, been there.
When you employ someone this kind of contract is good and if the people that work for you won't to work for you and you treat them fair it will never be needed, bigger company's may abuse this and not have close contact with there staff but I think telling someone they have done a good job and helping them when not makes a good working relationship works on a small scale but poss not in big company's
 
Hi AW.

Whilst it is true that there are very tight rules about withholding wages, that doesn't mean that you haven't signed a contract, which may still be enforceable.

.

A contract is unenforceable regardless of any signature if the terms of said contract are unlawful. So if the withholding of wages is unlawful in a particular circumstance then the contract even if signed is completely and utterly unenforceable

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A contract is unenforceable regardless of any signature if the terms of said contract are unlawful. So if the withholding of wages is unlawful in a particular circumstance then the contract even if signed is completely and utterly unenforceable

I just found this on a solicitors website:

RECOVERY OF TRAINING FEES
Employers often find themselves in a position where they have recruited an employee and spent a considerable amount of money on training them, either by sending them on external courses or by assisting them in attaining a professional qualification, only to see the employee leave shortly afterwards. This situation is often made far worse when the employee leaves the employer to join a competitor who then enjoys the benefits from the training without incurring the costs.
Training Fees as “Loans”
In order to redress what some employers might see as the inequity of this situation, it is becoming an increasingly common practice amongst employers to attempt to recover these costs from employees who leave employment shortly after they have undertaken such training. The usual method adopted is to include a repayment provision in the contract of employment whereby the training costs are “deemed” to constitute a loan to the employee which is repayable if the employee leaves employment within a certain period after the course or training ends.
In fact, provisions of this nature should be contained in a separate agreement to the contract of employment. This is to ensure that, as far as possible, the validity of a separate loan agreement for the recovery of training fees will not be affected if the employer has deliberately or inadvertently breached the contract of employment.
Genuine Pre-estimate of Loss or a Penalty?
Employer’s must be cautious to ensure that the amount of costs which the agreement permits the employer to recover is a genuine pre-estimate of the damages which the employer has suffered. Otherwise the provision for recovery of costs will be construed as a penalty against the employee which is unenforceable. Accordingly, if the employer has derived some benefit from the employee undertaking the training course or attaining a professional qualification during the fixed repayment period (e.g. where an employer has been able to charge customers more for an employee’s services by virtue of that training or qualification) then the amounts which may be recovered from the employee should be reduced to reflect that benefit.
The agreement should also contain a sliding scale of repayment whereby the amount which is to be repaid reduces according to the length of time the employee remains with the employer after the training has been completed. Equally the training fees should also become repayable on the same sliding scale if the employee is dismissed during the repayment period for gross misconduct.
Right to Deduct from Wages
Finally employers will wish to avoid the time and expense of resorting to the courts to enforce their right of recovery against an employee under the agreement. In order to do this a provision should be included in the agreement allowing the employer to deduct monies owed under the agreement directly from the employee’s salary or any other payments due to the employee on termination (including bonus, and any accrued holiday pay owing etc.). However, the employer may still need to pursue court action if there is a balance remaining.
The right to deduct monies from the employee’s salary or final payments must contain the following provisions:
(i) the employee must have signified in writing his agreement to the making of such deductions; and
(ii) there must be a clear statement that the deduction is to be made from the employee’s wages; and
(iii) the employee’s agreement must relate to the deduction being made from that source.
Conclusion
An employer must ensure that the above provisions are drafted correctly. As a cautionary note to employers, if a Tribunal orders an employer to repay any amount to an employee on the basis that there was an invalid deduction, the employer then loses the right to recover the money in any other way at all. It is therefore essential that professional assistance is sought if an employer wishes to ensure full protection.

source my emphasis added.

So it looks like a correctly drafted agreement can be enforced, even to the point of withholding wages, but only if pre-agreed". Obviously this is only one lawyers opinion, and case law changes all the time, and the definition of "genuine pre-estimate" sounds like it could keep lawyers arguing for decades, but it would be risky to rely on the courts to strike down such an agreement without getting up to date legal advice.
 
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