Heated Debate on UKPF

[Rob Foster]

Is in my opinion a healthy thing, it shows the contributors care about this industry. A desire to go that extra mile often after 5 pm is precious
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[rpm]

Err, what`s your point this time Rob? Or which thread are you refering to? Plus I think it is sometimes difficult to have a debate when numbnuts chip in.

 

[Rob Foster]

the one that was locked last night. agree about numbnuts
but it takes all sorts , I think its best to be inclusive, locking the thread was a good idea.it was the condenser pipe leak one
chking

 

[Riley]

The problem with that one was more people ignoring the forum rules and general attitude to established members that had done nothing wrong. Subsequent follow ups were made with the person in question but so far the offered hand has been rebuked.

 

[Sharp Point]

What did I miss, I had an early night last night

 

[Riley]

Nothing really mate

 

[Burger]

Plus I think it is sometimes difficult to have a debate when numbnuts chip in.

My apologies

 

[rpm]

My apologies

Wasn`t refering to you, you ..........................., numbnut!

 

[Last Plumber]

Just when the conversation gets going.......... 'closed'.

 

[Burger]

Wasn`t refering to you, you ..., numbnut!

I know

 

[Riley]

Closed

 

[Riley]

Kidding

 

[Rob876]

As long as they re-aligned that building to level the radiator, peace is restored.

 

[Dake205]

 

[Riley]

PM please read

 

[Welder]

A desire to go that extra mile often after 5 pm is precious

It is precious Rob. Unfortunately though many today have ZERO empathy, pay not a single consideration of what daft bu66ers like us give up to offer them advice and guidance. This is, what I term, the perspective (irony alarm) of the 'entitled'.

I know not where it came from, but people now think those on forums exist simply to 'serve' them. They are simply 'too busy', 'too clever' or 'too whatever' to trouble themselves with exploring and expanding their horizons. Indeed why should they put themselves out and disrupt their busy schedules when they can go 'on-line' and instantly get some other tw4t to do it all for them?

Now you've raised this, I understand why my own approach has hardened somewhat. I suppose what I'm trying to do is to, somehow, educate as well as inform. I am genuinely worried for the future because now more than ever we have people utterly incapable of even considering taking up tools and fixing things. That made me laugh out loud as I'm typing this because I read only yesterday that this same group are now THE Group driving the need to fix things due to the waste of raw materials and energy in our disposable society.

Hmm. A circle that is somewhat difficult to square.

 

[Rob Foster]

I see many new engineers most weeks, there is an age gap in skills from about 60 down to 30 which equates to the apprentice time served gap when engineering was not cool but all those who became bank people are being made redundant whereas If you like getting mucky you might still have a job. Its not all apps for phones either. 3 d printing is such an exciting area. So maybe thats why I am not dispondant
good to read your thoughts tho
I learn more on UKPF than Inthink I put in
regards Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Welder]

3 d printing is such an exciting area.

It is a fantastic thing Rob.
However, many people adopt this 'either or approach' so fail to see the connection between a shiny new 3D printer and the CNC lathes and shaping & milling machines of engineering workshops.
Indeed in schools now, those machines are left gathering dust or even being sold off because the so called teachers do not understand that the very 3D printers they revere are only made possible when the 'antiquated' machines are used to make the drive shafts they rely upon to function!
When will we go full circle to understanding that 'everything' has a place in our world?

 

[Rob Foster]

its not just 3 d printing, I come accross others doing exciting stuff. Mini Bms ...domestic building management systems are under rapid development..not the hive that is very intermediate. Anybody can play with a Rasberry Pie. joining boilers up that already monitor themselves to a bms hub which monitors temp, humidity, gas lecky and water use open doors windows etc. is on its way all reporting back to a call centre eg if the fan reports a rise in electricity demand then it is on its way out. Then there is Ineos and peel ports developing hydrogen enhanced natural gas in Manchester all baby faced engineers except me and my grey haired mates ! The future is bright but its not orange

Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Last Plumber]

When will we go full circle to understanding that 'everything' has a place in our world?

When it is too late?

I often say (boring I know) to my kids, that if the rapid paced technology that everyone in the generations below me rely on, fails, they would not know where to start or how to start again. So much information and knowledge gathered over hundreds of years is slowly being lost.
In my opinion.

 

[Welder]

WSo much information and knowledge gathered over hundreds of years is slowly being lost.

TBH I'm not sure it's being lost per se. What concerns me is the need to pointlessly & continually reinvent the wheel!

Let's be clear here. This is NOT the fault of current generations. I am NOT having any form of pop at them.

The root cause of this issue is MY generations fault, the current 60 yr olds. For reasons beyond my miniscule brain, we deemed it fit and proper to NOT teach those who come after us about the relevance of what went before. For some bl00dy stupid, idiotic, probably politically correct, reason we thought they did not 'need' to know about such things. Perhaps we got carried away with the visions of flying cars in the year 2000 portrayed by 'Tomorrow's World' (google it if under 40)? If so, we should have stopped the weed and acid and grown up, gotten real.

The simply indisputable fact is that knowledge & wisdom is based on accumulation. One needs to understand what went before, what happened previously, to build upon it. This is why, IMHO, the current batch of 'smart' controls do worse (performance wise) than the 1990 controller I have running my system at home. The guys who designed the Tado I link to had to literally to reinvent controls concepts I was using in the mid 1970s simply because they didn't know they existed.

Had they have done, had OUR generation bucked its bl00dy ideas up, they could have shaved 3-4 years off system development!

Us old gits need shooting - not the yoof

Rant off

 

[Last Plumber]

TBH I'm not sure it's being lost per se. What concerns me is the need to pointlessly & continually reinvent the wheel!

Let's be clear here. This is NOT the fault of current generations. I am NOT having any form of pop at them.

The root cause of this issue is MY generations fault, the current 60 yr olds. For reasons beyond my miniscule brain, we deemed it fit and proper to NOT teach those who come after us about the relevance of what went before. For some bl00dy stupid, idiotic, probably politically correct, reason we thought they did not 'need' to know about such things. Perhaps we got carried away with the visions of flying cars in the year 2000 portrayed by 'Tomorrow's World' (google it if under 40)? If so, we should have stopped the weed and acid and grown up, gotten real.

The simply indisputable fact is that knowledge & wisdom is based on accumulation. One needs to understand what went before, what happened previously, to build upon it. This is why, IMHO, the current batch of 'smart' controls do worse (performance wise) than the 1990 controller I have running my system at home. The guys who designed the Tado I link to had to literally to reinvent controls concepts I was using in the mid 1970s simply because they didn't know they existed.

Had they have done, had OUR generation bucked its bl00dy ideas up, they could have shaved 3-4 years off system development!

Us old gits need shooting - not the yoof

Rant off

I wasn't really blaming youth. I was meaning pretty much the same as you. The fast advancing pace of technology seems to leave behind the knowledge and experience which brought about that technology in the first place. To the point where, the generations to follow don't know or understand what went before. That leaves them in a vulnerable position I think.

Whether the fault lies with generations gone by or generations to come is debatable. I personally would say it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. I also think the speed of development means people struggle to keep up with the pace and therefore learning about anything in the past might be deemed a waste of precious time or pointless.

On the subject of re-inventing the wheel, there are many things in that category that make me ponder. For example, Heat pump technology has been around for over 70 years. Ground, Air and Water source have all been known about and used before, yet they are discussed as the new and latest idea. They were invented long before we had changed over to natural Gas in this country but remained relatively dormant for all that time.

 

[Welder]

I cannot see, genuinely, how we can blame the younger generations. They are moulded in our image (nurture) so 'do' as they are guided - at least till they old enough to truly know their own minds. Scientifically around 30 years of age.

It was OUR role to make sure they were fully equipped and we let 'em down big style.

 

[Riley]

If I may weigh in, I don’t disagree at all with what either of you are saying in fact I applaud many of the points made. What I do take umbrage with is who is to blame. Some responsibility definitely lies with the older generation for not passing the information on in a more forced way, however, there is a massive blame on the younger generation where a lot, not all I hasten to add, are frightened of hard work and simply want an easy job where they don’t have to think, but can take a decent wage for talking the talk in an office/admin type role, can dress nicely and they are not interested in self-improvement or using their imagination to design products of the future. A lot of this is down to media portrayal as well as celebrity culture, which in my humble opinion is consistently dumbing down our population. They make out that it is cool to be thick and uneducated. The blame I feel lies with some youngsters who don’t live in the real world and are unable to differentiate between celebrity unobtainable status and a normal life where a manual job is something to be proud of

 

[Welder]

there is a massive blame on the younger generation where a lot, not all I hasten to add, are frightened of hard work and simply want an easy job where they don’t have to think, but can take a decent wage for talking the talk in an office/admin type role, can dress nicely and they are not interested in self-improvement or using their imagination to design products of the future.

Just one question Riley. Are you not the man your parents, and their generation in the form of teachers and values, formed? We all are. Obviously there are many many individuals who are not but the truism applies to the masses.

The old adage of 'if you want to know a wife look at the mother' is an adage for bl00dy good reason. It's a truism. When parents complain about their kids it's mostly the clot looking back from the mirror that's to blame. This is not whimsical on my part btw, this is the output from many many studies (some trying to disprove) and a life of dealing with hand wringing parents of my kids friends "I can't do a thing with little Jonnny the drug dealer..." 'Perhaps' is my thought, 'you' shouldn't have smoked dope and joked about how harmless it is in front of him you pwick...'

Let's take 'the media'... Look at the personalities? ALL the shapers were of OUR generation. The damage had been done by the time YouTubers came along.