Help! Builder has messed up central heating

[tropical lounge]

Please help! I'm not a plumber but am in desperate need of advice on possible solutions to the mess my builder has made of my central heating system. I've just had some 'renovation' work done on the ground floor of my semi which involved moving/replacing 3 radiators, 2 of which are in the lounge, one in the kitchen diner. I have a standard central heating system (>20 year old boiler, hot water storage tank, cold water tank in loft). The pipework used to be surface mounted but as part of the renovations, completely new pipework was laid in a newly screeded concrete floor.
However, I've now discovered that the builder has plumbed it such that if any one of the 3 radiators is turned off, they all go off. I therefore presume he has linked them all to each other rather than having a feed and return loop. This is a huge problem as the lounge gets extremely hot but if I turn down either radiator in there, the kitchen goes freezing cold! Digging up the floor and starting again is pretty much a non starter as I've had expensive flooring already laid down and pipework to kitchen radiator is buried beneath a new fitted kitchen. My question is whether there is a solution that would allow me to individually regulate the 3 radiators. If a pipe was inserted beneath the radiator valves connecting one side of the radiator to the other (ie providing a bypass to the radiator), would the water still flow through the radiator when heat is needed or would it all just go the shortest route ie. along the bypass and not through the radiator? If that is the case, do 2 (or would it be 3?) way thermostatic radiator valves exist which when the room needs heating would allow water to flow into the radiator and simultaneously shut off flow to the bypass pipe, and when the desired room temperature is reached, divert the flow through the bypass pipe rather than radiator?
If the above is unfeasible, could anyone suggest an alternative solution? I really don't want to face suing the builder (I paid in full before realizing this was what he'd done) and having everything dug up again as it's already been 6 months for a 1month job (and yes, I DID get him by recommendation but didn't find out until later that he has the habit of doing the plumbing himself to save money on subcontractors).
Sorry for the long post and any suggestions or experinecs of overcoming a similar problem will be hugely appreciates. Many thanks

 

[bobpape]

If the situation is as you described, you could install a bypass pipe under each radiator
this pipe would need a gate valve in it to control the flow.

 

[so-solar]

firstly, ask the builder how it was piped then you can find a remedy

 

[Renewable M]

sorry you have been caught out by one of the cowboys.

 

[stevetheplumber]

Please help! I'm not a plumber but am in desperate need of advice on possible solutions to the mess my builder has made of my central heating system. I've just had some 'renovation' work done on the ground floor of my semi which involved moving/replacing 3 radiators, 2 of which are in the lounge, one in the kitchen diner. I have a standard central heating system (>20 year old boiler, hot water storage tank, cold water tank in loft). The pipework used to be surface mounted but as part of the renovations, completely new pipework was laid in a newly screeded concrete floor.
However, I've now discovered that the builder has plumbed it such that if any one of the 3 radiators is turned off, they all go off. I therefore presume he has linked them all to each other rather than having a feed and return loop. This is a huge problem as the lounge gets extremely hot but if I turn down either radiator in there, the kitchen goes freezing cold! Digging up the floor and starting again is pretty much a non starter as I've had expensive flooring already laid down and pipework to kitchen radiator is buried beneath a new fitted kitchen. My question is whether there is a solution that would allow me to individually regulate the 3 radiators. If a pipe was inserted beneath the radiator valves connecting one side of the radiator to the other (ie providing a bypass to the radiator), would the water still flow through the radiator when heat is needed or would it all just go the shortest route ie. along the bypass and not through the radiator? If that is the case, do 2 (or would it be 3?) way thermostatic radiator valves exist which when the room needs heating would allow water to flow into the radiator and simultaneously shut off flow to the bypass pipe, and when the desired room temperature is reached, divert the flow through the bypass pipe rather than radiator?
If the above is unfeasible, could anyone suggest an alternative solution? I really don't want to face suing the builder (I paid in full before realizing this was what he'd done) and having everything dug up again as it's already been 6 months for a 1month job (and yes, I DID get him by recommendation but didn't find out until later that he has the habit of doing the plumbing himself to save money on subcontractors).
Sorry for the long post and any suggestions or experinecs of overcoming a similar problem will be hugely appreciates. Many thanks

as you suggested a bypass from pipe to pipe below rad would work as said you need a valve in it to regulate the flow a ballofix valve would look a little better than a gate valve but its not going to look pretty

 

[migoplumber]

or fit one pipe sytem valve to the rads, depends how your rads are plumbed up, do you have a valve on both sides of rads or just the one. all of the above options works too.

 

[Blackcatgas]

I dont know the situation or the full story, but have you asked the builder to come back and sort the problem?, what a ( NO SWEARING )if hes connected them up like that for what it would of cost him and the very little extra effort it would have taken to put in an extra pipe in the floor, Il bet he has just laid the bare copper into the cement screed aswell hasnt he?

 

[WHPES]

I would suggest you get a proper plumber round to sort it out. The other solutions are not really satisfactory.

Never pay everything up until you are happy with the work.

 

[migoplumber]

the situation has not been fully explained, he may well of fitted a one pipe system and not set the valves up right. nothing wrong with a one pipe system. lets wait for a response before jumping to conclusions

 

[pauls]

i dont fully understand what he has done here. if he has teed into an existing rad (flow an return) and ran pipework to new position of new rad then teed off again to go to other rad position and so on then all rads should work independantly. or am i way of the mark

 

[tropical lounge]

Hi, thanks for all the replies. I contacted the builder explaining that I couldn't turn one off without turning them all off and got the answer 'yeah' and he confirmed that the way it was set up, turning off any one would turn off the flow to all three and then tried to make out this was how it was before (which it wasn't).

Not being a plumber, I can only answer 'technical' bits by description I'm afraid. Before the work was done, the pipes were surface mounted and there were 2 horizontal pipes running round the room, so separate feed and returns; this hasn't been touched upstairs or the hall radiator (I've checked, any of these can still be turned off individually). The pipes then go from the hallway into the lounge and then into the kitchen and it is these two rooms that have new piping and the problem, and I can't see the pipe layout as it is totally within the floor. The pipes he laid in the screed floor were plastic, only linking to copper within the floor just below the rads.

I have contacted the builder and he says he'll ask his plumber about a solution (no doubt the plumber he should have got in to do the work in the first place) but I want to be armed with knowing what will and will not work otherwise he will try and BS me. So, whether the original builder comes back or I have to get someone else in to fix it, I’m really grateful for your replies and collective experience on what will work.

From the replies so far, it seems like a bypass pipe would work but would need a valve in it. Is there an automatic (pressure?) valve available that could be used to automatically shut the bypass pipe when the rad valve is open (I'm thinking along the lines of when the rad valve is open, the water pressure in the bypass pipe wouldn't be as great and wouldn't open the valve but shutting off the rad would increase pressure in the bypass pipe and open value - purely hypothetical on my part as I don't know what parts actually exist)? I'd ideally like TRVs and have the whole thing self regulating rather than having to manually close the bypass pipe when I need heat and vice versa. Edited to ask - did I misunderstand? If a ball-o-fix valve was used (looked up on wiki), would I need to keep opening it and shutting it manually, or would it just need to be set at a given position to balance the flow between rad and bypass valve then just left in this position?

Hi Shaun,
quote “or fit one pipe sytem valve to the rads, depends how your rads are plumbed up, do you have a valve on both sides of rads or just the one. all of the above options works too.”

Valve-wise, there's one at each end of each radiator - one that you need a spanner to turn off and the other which you turn manually to turn the temperature down (don't have TRVs). Is this enough information to answer your question? I don’t know what a one pipe system is, but solving the problem by just changing the valves would be an answer to my prayers.

I’ve asked the builder for a diagram of how the pipes are actually laid but suspect a response will not be rapidly forthcoming :-(

 

[bobpape]

I think he has not teed off to the rads but has daisy chained them.

 

[migoplumber]

agreed bob. might be best to fit one pipe system valves, that way he can still balance his sytem out correctly, instead of the bypass copper pipe under each rad

 

[Jimbob]

yeah sounds like hes done it 1 pipe style... oh dear what a pleb.

I would personsally kick up a fuss and get the pipework chased up and made into a 2 pipe system, else your going to be stuck with a system which is years old and works poorly.

 

[I am bonkers]

How are the other radiators around the house affected?

 

[tropical lounge]

Hi all,
The rest of the system is unaffected. The boiler is in a cupboard in the hall. From there, 2 pipes go upwards to the first floor. There are 4 rads upstairs, standard feed and return. The 2 pipes then come down again on the other side of the hall and go through the lounge wall. There is a rad in the hall teed off these 2 pipes. The upstairs and hall rad have not been altered and still work fine. Once the pipes go through the wall from the hall to the lounge, the problem starts. They feed 2 rads in the lounge, go through another wall to feed one in the kitchen. It is these 3 that are linked. I need to at least be able to turn off the lounge ones while keeping the kitchen at full blast (lounge much warmer and also has a living flame fire I want to be able to use). Would '1 pipe system valves' allow me to turn off 2 out of 3 linked rads or are they just aimed at allowing you to get all 3 rads to the same temp?
I thought I had a solution - take a feed and return off the upstairs system for the one in the kitchen instead so although the 2 lounge radiators would be linked, at least the kitchen would be fine. However, the kitchen rad is in an extension so to it would be a major job to avoid a dual run of surface mounted pipes.
I've also had friends (engineers, not plumbers but do their own plumbing) exercise their brains for me and they've come up with a three way valve. Please see below for that email exchange and if there is any reason why you think it wouldn't work.
FOUND IT!!!!
http://www.bhl.co.uk/uploads/article331/Danfoss_RAVK.pdf
You need thermostatic Y-valves or 3-way valves.
Water flows one way ‘till the TRV tips, then the other way (via the bypass) afterwards. Not common, or easy to get, but (as the link shows) they exist. Three of these and three by-pass pipes and Robert is sleeping with your auntie.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never seen one of those before. So as you say 3 of these valves (inflow side of rad) three bypass pipes and three “3-way” valves (http://heating.danfoss.com/xxTypex/1388_MNU949453_SIT54.html)
then the “outflow” end of the bypass pipe just has a simple “T” – then you Gaffa tape the sensor to the rear of the rad, once it reaches temperature it then closes flow to rad and pushes water along bypass to next Rad. Then repeat!
Fiddly plumbing depending on the space available to work in, but certainly technically feasible. I note the KOVM 3 way valves are 15mm but take an “internal thread fitting” which may be a bit trickier.
Actually on second thoughts, you wouldn’t need the TRV with the remote thermocouple, as a standard TRV would work (being in the room with the rad itself?) the clever bit is the 3 way valve.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This valve, with a simple TRV top, on all three rads, and hide a bypass run of pipe behind the skirting.
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P.S. The reason for trying to find a solution that gets round the problem in an acceptable, if not ideal way, is because the new pipework is buried in a newly screeded floor and before knowing what he'd done, I got a separate flooring company in and have had v expensive, Kardean flooring throughout, which is glued down and hence would be ruined. To get the builder to not only agree to dig up both the kitchen and lounge screeded floors and then pay the flooring company would definitely mean going to court which I want to avoid if at all possible. Also, it's already taken 6 months for a 1 month job and I really can't face starting again.

 

[I am bonkers]

Keep it simple. Re-connect in 2 pipe, surface mounted as before in the lounge, from the point where the pipes enter from the hall. Get some nice pipe covers and you'll never notice. Don't add any valves.

You should be able to utilise the pipework in the kitchen whether it is the original or buried in the new floor. Hopefully, in either case it is accessible at some point as it passes through the wall. Single pipe (with by pass) can be fine but only with large diameter supply. Why take the risk?

 

[doitmyself]

If the builder has daisy chained the rads, ie the output of the first joins to the input of the second, then no valve will work.

There must be a bypass pipe connecting the input to the output of each rad. The three-way valve then determines how much flows through the rad and how much flows down the bypass. The two flows join and go onto the next rad, at a lower temperature.

 

[bobpape]

Doitmyself

I agree but where lies the need for a three port valve,

Why not just use one of the existing rad valves it does not really matter which. it will facilitate balancing or shutting off the rad. so long as you fit the by pass pipe.

 

[doitmyself]

I agree but where lies the need for a three port valve?

Why not just use one of the existing rad valves it does not really matter which? it will facilitate balancing or shutting off the rad. so long as you fit the by pass pipe.

If you fit a by-pass, the natural flow will be for most of the water to go via the bypass; this because the resistance is less in the bypass. There needs to be a way of restricting the flow through the by-pass so the rad receives the required flow. This can done either by fitting a flow restrictor in the bypass or by using a three way valve.

 

[I am bonkers]

There must be a bypass pipe connecting the input to the output of each rad. The three-way valve then determines how much flows through the rad and how much flows down the bypass.

Why not just use one of the existing rad valves it does not really matter which. it will facilitate balancing or shutting off the rad. so long as you fit the by pass pipe.

If you fit a by-pass, the natural flow will be for most of the water to go via the bypass; this because the resistance is less in the bypass. There needs to be a way of restricting the flow through the by-pass so the rad receives the required flow. This can done either by fitting a flow restrictor in the bypass or by using a three way valve.

Can't believe you're even debating this. If you're going to the bother of fitting a surface mounted bypass why not just duplicate the original 2 pipes in the lounge? Guaranteed to work. Nothing to adjust, maintain or fail.

 

[tropical lounge]

Unfortunately, because of the room layout, re-running surface mounted pipes isn't practical. The lounge door is in the centre of the wall and there's a radiator on either side so it would mean digging up the flooring to get the pipes from one side of the room to the other, unless the pipes went up and over the doorway (can't go the other way because of fireplace) . Similarly in the kitchen, there is now a run of newly fitted kitchen units to get past between where the pipes would enter and the radiator. A bypass pipe, if it would work, would at least be just under the radiators themselves and could potentially even be hidden behind skirting.

 

[I am bonkers]

Unfortunately, because of the room layout, re-running surface mounted pipes isn't practical. The lounge door is in the centre of the wall and there's (now?) a radiator on either side so it would mean digging up the flooring to get the pipes from one side of the room to the other

 

[tropical lounge]

There always was a rad on either side of the door. Before the work was done, the surface mounted pipes in the lounge went underground briefly just to cross the door threshold. All this old pipe work was removed when the floor was dug up and re-screeded.

Since there doesn't seem to be anyone saying that the 3 way valve and bypass definately won't work, I'm leaning towards trying this on one radiator in the lounge initially to see if it works. Not ideal and the builder will be taken to task over it - talking to the electrician recently, was told he knew someone else the builder had done this to (may try and get their name)!

It may be while before I can get it done, but will let you know the result.
Thanks for all your input, very much appreciated. Off to put hat and gloves on and start cooking dinner.....