HELP!! Gas meter/supply under sized

[lecky01]

Hello, I'm looking to get some advice from experienced gas installers.

I had a combi boiler/central heating system replaced June 2010. In Feb 2011 I received a call from Gas Safe saying they'd like to come and inspect the job. Gas Safe were generally happy with the gas installation (other than some labels had been omitted) but were concerned as the meter (u6) appeared undersized as we have another two combi boilers from the same gas supply at our property.

To start with, the gas installer flapped and suggested shutting off two combi boilers, changing to propane, use electric water heating or running a new gas pipe 40 m in length at my cost, amongst other things.

The gas installer (has apparently) contacted a friend of his in Transco who tells him there's an issue with the gas supply to my property, apprently a letter was sent "to the occupier" two-years ago essentially saying that the supply is undersized for the demand and if it's not sorted out they will cut the supply off. I've never seen such a letter and have lived here for 2.5 years. Seems a bit fishy.

Can anyone help me with what to do next? Who is at fault?

Thank you.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

i would speak to transco to change your meter to larger one and to upgrade your gas supply ! which seems the only reasonable solution

 

[SafeGasInstall]

is the installer who should have checked before hand the size of the meter and the safe install ! what size are your boilers and cookers/hobs fires

 

[Agile]

The installer DID bring up the question of the under sized gas supply with you before he installed/replaced the boiler.

It seems that it was YOU who chose to take no action to get your supply upgraded.

Its not clear if Gas Safe turned off one or more of your boilers.

There is an immediate solution to your problem on a temporary basis and thats to time the system so that no more than two of three boilers operate together. The heating settings also need to be addressed to reduce the maximum demand of each.

I usually find that its the owner who likes to have lots of boilers but the installer faced with a wealthy person who can provide him with work is reluctant to argue/tell him what to do.

A simple example is that a swiming pool can be timed to be heated at night when the house heating is timed to be off.

Tony Glazier

 

[capitanpugwash]

Agile:

"The installer DID bring up the question of the under sized gas supply with you before he installed/replaced the boiler."

Where does he say this in the post. I get the impression from what's been written that this is not the case?

 

[franky]

Just get it upgraded to a u16 meter its no big deal, then get the installer to upgrade the pipework. (P.S when I say its no big deal I mean its not that hard to change the meter not that its alright to get the pipesizing wrong.)

 

[tamz]

You can't viably run 3 combi boilers from a u6. They would need roughly 9m³/hr (maybe more) and the meter can only pass 6m³/hr max. The meter needs upgrading to a u16. Contact your gas supplier.
If you have a 40m run of pipe it will undoubtedly need upgrading too.
Who is to blame? Well, it shouldn't have been fitted without an adequate supply.

 

[franky]

Woah missed out on that 40m run thats gonna but it into commercial work I think? I may be wrong but that means your installer needs a commercial ticket.
Although there might be a way round this I'm not sure

 

[SafeGasInstall]

is this the same story from two weeks back !!! where some one was looking for boiler upgrade but no one would do it .......

 

[tamz]

Although there might be a way round this I'm not sure

Keep volume of any section below 0.035m³. Valves and test nipples

 

[fuzzy]

Woah missed out on that 40m run thats gonna but it into commercial work I think? I may be wrong but that means your installer needs a commercial ticket.
Although there might be a way round this I'm not sure

not sure but think its ok if a domestic property, thats why they introduced pipe sizing and comm purging requirements to domestic gas acs

 

[stevetheplumber]

the real answer would be three meters on for each dwelling

 

[lecky01]

Thanks for all the help and comments although I fail to see where Agile was coming from?

At the moment we have a large floor mounted Worcester Bosch combi doing the house and a small Baxi 106 (I think?) just doing hot water at a sink. The new combi we had installed last year was a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 28(? not sure).

The bottom line is that I asked a reputable firm to replace a heating system in a granny flat. I did not know of any issues prior, they were the experts and weren't backwards in coming forwards when other unforeseen issues were identified and, ultimately, their invoice reflected that.

The gas fitter came round later today, he wanted to cap off the main part of the house and just run the boiler he'd installed so that Gas Safe would see that they'd sorted it. He would then reconnect once the dust had settled. This is no good as it would leave us (wife/kids) without hot water. Either way, though, if it doesn't comply now it won't comply then.

So, what can I expect this gas fitter to do?

Again, comments gratefully accepted.

 

[plumbster3456]

basically what you need to do has been explained already get the metre upgraded then either try and get the supposedly reputable firm who done the job to upgrade as they are responsible for fitting the boiler to the gas pipework or pay some other firm to upgrade the pipe this is very black and white that is the only options you have.

 

[plumbster3456]

pipe sizing was introduced because all gas pipework including domestic should and needs to be sized nd the same goes to purging

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

so already you have a small baxi 105? fairly big output boiler 31kw a worcester 28=27 kw so thats 56kw what outputs the fs boiler?

 

[Agile]

Hello, I'm looking to get some advice from experienced gas installers.

To start with, the gas installer flapped and suggested shutting off two combi boilers, changing to propane, use electric water heating or running a new gas pipe 40 m in length at my cost, amongst other things.

Can anyone help me with what to do next? Who is at fault?

Thank you.

Where I am coming from is that the installer totally correctly identified to you that the gas supply was undersized.

Really he should not have installed the boiler but perhaps to be helpful, or perhaps because he needed the work, he still fitted it expecting or hoping that you would follow his advice to have the supply upgraded.

The supply up to the meter outlet is the responsibility of the gas shipper, usually Nat Grid Transco.

Its up to you as owner to arrange to have the meter/supply upgraded.

Tony

 

[Blackcatgas]

Thanks for all the help and comments although I fail to see where Agile was coming from?

At the moment we have a large floor mounted Worcester Bosch combi doing the house and a small Baxi 106 (I think?) just doing hot water at a sink. The new combi we had installed last year was a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 28(? not sure).

The bottom line is that I asked a reputable firm to replace a heating system in a granny flat. I did not know of any issues prior, they were the experts and weren't backwards in coming forwards when other unforeseen issues were identified and, ultimately, their invoice reflected that.

The gas fitter came round later today, he wanted to cap off the main part of the house and just run the boiler he'd installed so that Gas Safe would see that they'd sorted it. He would then reconnect once the dust had settled. This is no good as it would leave us (wife/kids) without hot water. Either way, though, if it doesn't comply now it won't comply then.

So, what can I expect this gas fitter to do?

Again, comments gratefully accepted.

Get rid of the 105 at the sink and connect the hot pipe up to the big worcester?

 

[Blackcatgas]

Also has the gas supplier mentioned anything about diversity factors?

 

[Blackcatgas]

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safety-register-forum/10093-hi.html Diversity factors

 

[capitanpugwash]

I had a combi boiler/central heating system replaced June 2010. In Feb 2011 I received a call from Gas Safe saying they'd like to come and inspect the job. Gas Safe were generally happy with the gas installation (other than some labels had been omitted) but were concerned as the meter (u6) appeared undersized as we have another two combi boilers from the same gas supply at our property.

To start with, the gas installer flapped and suggested shutting off two combi boilers, changing to propane, use electric water heating or running a new gas pipe 40 m in length at my cost, amongst other things.

Agile,

If you read this again you will see that he has boiler fitted in June 2010. Feb 2011 Gas Safe inspect and have issues with the supply- which the installer is responsible for having not checked and arranged to be suitable. The way I read it at this point the installer was contacted and he then "flapped and suggested shutting off two combi boilers". This being to cover his back AFTER the Gas Safe inspection....

As for the rest, I like your timing solution- it is tidy- except for the fact that if taps were run from the combis they'd fire up or be off on a timer and there would be no hot water available....!

 

[lecky01]

Tony, thanks for your comments but you're reading out of sequence. The installer flapped afer the Gas Safe inspector had been, not before, he did not inform me of any issues prior to installation nor immediately after, the issue was highlighted by Gas Safe.

 

[lecky01]

Thanks for all the comments and help. Apparently, the pipe coming in is 35 mm and I need 12 cub.m gas maximum, which, my gas installer and Transco seem happy about. I have contacted my gas supplier to send forms requesting a change of meter from u6 to u16. I'll post any info that comes out of this.

Thanks again.

 

[PlumbingSucks]

some info about diversity factors that people might find handy. I have an issue on a job where the u6 meter might be too small for a new 40kw boiler and existing appliances so rang gas safe and they said when sizing a meter you only need to take into account

100% of gas consumption for a conventional boiler
60% for cooker
40% for gas fires

 

[Blackcatgas]

some info about diversity factors that people might find handy. I have an issue on a job where the u6 meter might be too small for a new 40kw boiler and existing appliances so rang gas safe and they said when sizing a meter you only need to take into account

100% of gas consumption for a conventional boiler
60% for cooker
40% for gas fires

80% for a combi