Hot Water Cylinder incorrectly connected

[Finn321]

I bought a new replacement indirect vented cylinder and immersion but it turns out that the plumber has wrongly connected it up and needs to rotate it. The water from the radiators is coming out of my hot tap. I have had to switch of the boiler, after it started making a noise and water came out the pipes from the overflow tanks in the loft . What I would like to know is will it have damaged my boiler and will the muck from my old radiators have caused damage to the new cylinder. Its ridiculous that i have had to diagnose why the water wasn't heating up and why everything was making such a loud noise. The plumber is coming back in a couple of days time to rectify it. Any advice would be appreciated.
I have a shower pump installed in the loft as well which was connected to the cylinder.

 

[snowhead]

Any advice would be appreciated.

Yes , don't let the "Plumber" that fitted it incorrectly anywhere near it.

 

[Stigster]

Yes , don't let the "Plumber" that fitted it incorrectly anywhere near it.

Do UK consumer laws not require the customer to at least give the installer a chance to rectify the problem at the installer's cost? I just worry if there could be claims down line which will be affected by refusing to let the installer rectify the problems he caused.

 

[snowhead]

Do UK consumer laws not require the customer to at least give the installer a chance to rectify the problem at the installer's cost?

Yes, You can't get someone else in to correct the work and try and bill the original installer for the costs unless they agree to that.

But if the original installer didn't have the skills to complete a relatively simple job correctly and in this case potentially put lives or persons health at risk, then they shouldn't be trusted to have another go.
Also the installers apparent lack of urgency to sort the problem out and therefore the appreciation of the potential risks.

Whether the customer tries to claim for the costs is another issue.
I'd like to see how the installer comes up with a Legal defence for such appauling workmanship.

 

[Scott_D]

Can you post a few pictures of the installation?

 

[Finn321]

Can you post a few pictures of the installation?

Thank you so much for your feedback i really appreciate it. He admitted the mistake last night at 6 ish and said he could rectify it there and then but I pointed out to him that he would need to rinse out the tank now and it was late and dark and i didnt trust him to do a rush job. Then of course I was worried all night that my son and i could have ingested inhibitor if the cold tap hadnt been run long enough. As it turns out he says he hadn't added the inhibitor yet!! Though techniqually he had left and finished the job and invoiced me for £375 which is labor, inhibitor and 3 way valve. I purchased the Telford tank and immersion myself.
Sadly i have constantly had dreadful trades people and i can only put it down to bad luck and possibly being a single female who is taken advantage of...
He is coming back on Friday as he cant do Thursday but I am worried my boiler may have been damaged and wonder if i should get it serviced before I pay him any money at all? He is not gas safe registered but does have liability insurance as i was sent a copy of the certificate before I booked him.
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I wasn't going to get him to service the boiler but will i be able to charge him for the costs?

 

[DXCross]

As said above I feel a few pictures would be a help? Could be a faulty coil? - admittedly unlikely on a new cylinder but stranger things have happened

 

[Finn321]

EEEk Ive just looked at his insurance cover and it expired on the 10th October this year!! :-((
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As said above I feel a few pictures would be a help? Could be a faulty coil? - admittedly unlikely on a new cylinder but stranger things have happen

[automerge]1574886530[/automerge]
Ive attached pictures but Telford Cylinders have confirmed that its been fitted incorrectly and the plumber himself has admitted it too but i'm just concerned that it may have caused damage to the boiler

 

[Ric2013]

Looks to me that he's fitted the flow from the boiler to a secondary return tapping so he's plumbed it in as almost as if it were a thermal store. I imagine the shower water runs clean but is barely warm at all after the first ten seconds.

At a guess I'd say the heating system would benefit from flushing out (due to the amount of dirt already in it before this guy set his hand on the system) but that the boiler is unlikely to have been damaged - though the cylinder and cistern will need rinsing out before it is put back into use.

If there is that much gunk in the heating system and the boiler has run for this long then it's hopefully an old boiler that can cope with water that dirty, but it's not good for it to run with dirty water.

I don't really think you can claim the cost of flushing out your heating system as that needed doing anyway and his work has merely highlighted an existing problem, but obviously down to him to make good and give the cylinder and cistern a clean and rinse through, and I doubt his capability. If that's the shower pumped off the coil on the left, then he really hasn't a clue: it should be obvious the shower would not connect that low down the cylinder.

Please let us know what happens. It is intriguing that any plumbing professional (in the sense of working for money) would make such a mistake. Was he a qualified plumber or just someone who thought plumbing was a more interesting way of spending the day than reading party manifestos?

 

[Finn321]

Hello Ric2013
I have switched the boiler off completely as it was making a terrible noise. I have had the heating system flushed through before but it was about 5 years ago and i still have one very old radiator in the living room.
I have spoken to a couple of plumbers and they are reluctant to take over the job but have also said that they wouldn't get the plumber back as he sounds so incompetent.
We currently don't have any central heating and no hot water and we are now only using the water from the kitchen tap. I am considering going to his insurance company, which i have found out is still in date.
Simply because in the near future my Salamander pump and boiler may pack up because of this.
[automerge]1574897467[/automerge]
I'm even worried about our two young cats now because i have given them tap water to drink from the upstairs tap.
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Looks to me that he's fitted the flow from the boiler to a secondary return tapping so he's plumbed it in as almost as if it were a thermal store. I imagine the shower water runs clean but is barely warm at all after the first ten seconds.

At a guess I'd say the heating system would benefit from flushing out (due to the amount of dirt already in it before this guy set his hand on the system) but that the boiler is unlikely to have been damaged - though the cylinder and cistern will need rinsing out before it is put back into use.

If there is that much gunk in the heating system and the boiler has run for this long then it's hopefully an old boiler that can cope with water that dirty, but it's not good for it to run with dirty water.

I don't really think you can claim the cost of flushing out your heating system as that needed doing anyway and his work has merely highlighted an existing problem, but obviously down to him to make good and give the cylinder and cistern a clean and rinse through, and I doubt his capability. If that's the shower pumped off the coil on the left, then he really hasn't a clue: it should be obvious the shower would not connect that low down the cylinder.

Please let us know what happens. It is intriguing that any plumbing professional (in the sense of working for money) would make such a mistake. Was he a qualified plumber or just someone who thought plumbing was a more interesting way of spending the day than reading party manifestos?

Hello again,
He has a blue JB card, water regs and unvented cylinder and G3. Mine is a vented cylinder. Maybe thats where he went wrong. I feel such an idiot for being so trusting . He has connected the secondary shower pump to the coil and the cold water inlet to the coil. The boiler is connected straight into the cylinder.

 

[leelister6]

That level of incompetence needs reporting to Trading Standards. Most plumbers would take a bit of time to mark up the pipes on the existing cylinder before taking it out so they know the flow/return/ cold feed etc.
I appreciate that you're supposed to give the person a chance to rectify mistakes but I'd be reluctant to let this wally loose near anything wet or hot ever again.

 

[Finn321]

That level of incompetence needs reporting to Trading Standards. Most plumbers would take a bit of time to mark up the pipes on the existing cylinder before taking it out so they know the flow/return/ cold feed etc.
I appreciate that you're supposed to give the person a chance to rectify mistakes but I'd be reluctant to let this wally loose near anything wet or hot ever again.

Hello,
I am not letting him near it. I have also just found out that although he said he had liability insurance cover he doesn't have any cover for anything that he has worked upon! i feel so dismayed and ive been told to contact my own insurance company. To top it off our only plug in heater packed up last night.

 

[centralheatking]

I bought a new replacement indirect vented cylinder and immersion but it turns out that the plumber has wrongly connected it up and needs to rotate it. The water from the radiators is coming out of my hot tap. I have had to switch of the boiler, after it started making a noise and water came out the pipes from the overflow tanks in the loft . What I would like to know is will it have damaged my boiler and will the muck from my old radiators have caused damage to the new cylinder. Its ridiculous that i have had to diagnose why the water wasn't heating up and why everything was making such a loud noise. The plumber is coming back in a couple of days time to rectify it. Any advice would be appreciated.
I have a shower pump installed in the loft as well which was connected to the cylinder.

This is an unbelievable basic error, and yes centralheating water has contaminated the hot water storage of your new cylinder. if this clown had been working for me then he would be down the road. centralheatking

 

[Last Plumber]

I can't believe anyone would do that if they had any kind of qualification or experience.

Are you sure he isn't unwell?

I may be wrong for suspecting that but any Plumber - even green ones - would struggle to make those mistakes. Especially as he removed one cylinder to replace it with one that was presumably identical or at least very similar.

Obviously it may be that he has no idea what he's doing but it sounds odd.

 

[Ric2013]

Hello again,
He has a blue JB card, water regs and unvented cylinder and G3. Mine is a vented cylinder. Maybe thats where he went wrong. I feel such an idiot for being so trusting . He has connected the secondary shower pump to the coil and the cold water inlet to the coil. The boiler is connected straight into the cylinder.

Assuming he's also got his Level 2 NVQ, he's more qualified than me. But quite how he made such a fundemental mistake...?

Unvented qualification is the G3 qualification,. No, he didn't go wrong because he's used to unvented cylinders - he's either a qualified idiot, or he's overtired and probably needs some time off, or he's unwell as Last Plumber suggests. Vented cylinders are one of the first things you learn about in plumbing courses as they are by far the most common type.

Trusting? Well, what else could you do? Ask too many questions and most plumbers will consider you untrusting and untrustworthy and won't want to work for you. You've been unlucky, that I admit.

From what I can see, while he's contaminated your cylinder feed cistern (which might or might not be the same as the cistern used to feed your upstairs cold tap, assuming your upstairs tap is not mains fed), all he'll have done as far as your boiler is concerned is connect it to the new and therefore relatively clean cylinder. Over time that might have led to the boiler scaling up, but it didn't work long enough for that to happen. I understand you'll want it checked out for reassurance, but a boiler service will probably not tell you very much (should really be serviced, or at least inspected, annually anyway).

If your boiler breaks tomorrow, you'll probably never know if it was cause or co-incidence. But my hunch is it won't break.

In any case, regardless of how well it was flushed five years ago, if the water is now black then there is dirt (usually corrosion products) in the system and this will tend to shorten the life of any boiler (although the old-fashioned boilers were built for robustness rather than efficiency and will tolerate dirtier water than modern ones).

 

[snowhead]

I could maybe understand getting crossed connections during initial installation, especially if the layout is completely different but to have failed to check before filling and then failed to have checked after filling and before leaving is inexcusable.

 

[Stigster]

I may be wrong for suspecting that but any Plumber - even green ones - would struggle to make those mistakes. Especially as he removed one cylinder to replace it with one that was presumably identical or at least very similar.

When I was first let loose as a first year apprentice, a mature apprentice but still very inexperienced, I was so paranoid about doing something stupid like this I checked, tested and checked again before I did anything. I'd put my wet-vac on the tappings and check where they all went precisely so I wouldn't plumb in a cylinder "backwards" like this. Label up all pipes with a marker pen before I did anything. Doubt myself and check yet again! I made mistakes but nothing I couldn't pick up and rectify myself before anyone noticed. That paranoia can be tiring but literally be a life-saver in some situations.

This situation is almost unbelievable.

 

[centralheatking]

This is an unbelievable basic error, and yes centralheating water has contaminated the hot water storage of your new cylinder. if this clown had been working for me then he would be down the road. centralheatking

The best way out of this is INSIST that the cylinder is disconnected removed taken outside and throughly flushed out with a hose pipe on its side from the top connection and out through the very bottom one which ought to face downwards. The two middle ones will be ok as they feed the coil which had clean water in them rather than central heating water.
and swirled around
I would be there to witness the water running clear after 15 mins plus chking
let us know how you get on, this one goes in the 'big book'

 

[snowhead]

And the DHW pipework also needs flushing and possibly cleaning with suitable chemicals.

 

[centralheatking]

And the DHW pipework also needs flushing and possibly cleaning with suitable chemicals.

I wonder what 'suitable chemicals' are for flushing DHW pipework that have been contaminated with centralheating water probably with dosed with fernox etc.
This has happened to me before, went out for a meal with another couple, I always smell of plumbing according to my last but one wife. Anyway I am sat next to our friends wife and all I am getting is 'plumbing smell' got home asked her ...do I smell
...she said no...next morning got it, went round and talked with my mate the husband and he agreed Juile Stank in bed....guess what the coil in the cylinder had split so she was bathing in central heating water...solution new cylinder..on a saturday morning
happy days. centralheatking

 

[Finn321]

I wonder what 'suitable chemicals' are for flushing DHW pipework that have been contaminated with centralheating water probably with dosed with fernox etc.
This has happened to me before, went out for a meal with another couple, I always smell of plumbing according to my last but one wife. Anyway I am sat next to our friends wife and all I am getting is 'plumbing smell' got home asked her ...do I smell
...she said no...next morning got it, went round and talked with my mate the husband and he agreed Juile Stank in bed....guess what the coil in the cylinder had split so she was bathing in central heating water...solution new cylinder..on a saturday morning
happy days. centralheatking

Hello
Well if anyone does know what chemicals I could use then i would appreciate it. I have found out that his insurance liability of £2million does not cover ANYTHING that he has worked on. Only damage caused i.e spilt water from radiator like magnetide stain on the carpet. This cements the fact that I definately cannot get him back to rectify because if he causes more damage then i am not covered. The only plus is that i haven't paid him. But I am pleased to hear that the boiler is probably ok. The shower pump I guess may not be ok.
[automerge]1574950556[/automerge]

Assuming he's also got his Level 2 NVQ, he's more qualified than me. But quite how he made such a fundemental mistake...?

Unvented qualification is the G3 qualification,. No, he didn't go wrong because he's used to unvented cylinders - he's either a qualified idiot, or he's overtired and probably needs some time off, or he's unwell as Last Plumber suggests. Vented cylinders are one of the first things you learn about in plumbing courses as they are by far the most common type.

Trusting? Well, what else could you do? Ask too many questions and most plumbers will consider you untrusting and untrustworthy and won't want to work for you. You've been unlucky, that I admit.

From what I can see, while he's contaminated your cylinder feed cistern (which might or might not be the same as the cistern used to feed your upstairs cold tap, assuming your upstairs tap is not mains fed), all he'll have done as far as your boiler is concerned is connect it to the new and therefore relatively clean cylinder. Over time that might have led to the boiler scaling up, but it didn't work long enough for that to happen. I understand you'll want it checked out for reassurance, but a boiler service will probably not tell you very much (should really be serviced, or at least inspected, annually anyway).

If your boiler breaks tomorrow, you'll probably never know if it was cause or co-incidence. But my hunch is it won't break.

In any case, regardless of how well it was flushed five years ago, if the water is now black then there is dirt (usually corrosion products) in the system and this will tend to shorten the life of any boiler (although the old-fashioned boilers were built for robustness rather than efficiency and will tolerate dirtier water than modern ones).

So does my cold storage tank in the loft need emptying as well and cleaning? Should I get someone else in who is gas safe registered as well and get them to clean the cylinder and flush through everything?
[automerge]1574950751[/automerge]

The best way out of this is INSIST that the cylinder is disconnected removed taken outside and throughly flushed out with a hose pipe on its side from the top connection and out through the very bottom one which ought to face downwards. The two middle ones will be ok as they feed the coil which had clean water in them rather than central heating water.
and swirled around
I would be there to witness the water running clear after 15 mins plus chking
let us know how you get on, this one goes in the 'big book'

Central heating king, do you think I should get him back or now that i know he's not covered for the work mistake use someone else? I don't want any nasty chemicals on my young son .

 

[centralheatking]

Hello
Well if anyone does know what chemicals I could use then i would appreciate it. I have found out that his insurance liability of £2million does not cover ANYTHING that he has worked on. Only damage caused i.e spilt water from radiator like magnetide stain on the carpet. This cements the fact that I definately cannot get him back to rectify because if he causes more damage then i am not covered. The only plus is that i haven't paid him. But I am pleased to hear that the boiler is probably ok. The shower pump I guess may not be ok.

Gas leak detection spray is good to get rid of the black stains from mag sludge, on carpets but not sure if it works after a few days, Bluntly as I outlined before take naughty cylinder out and flush and then when its back in just run loads of water through the whole system most of these chemicals are quite benign and diluted 1000x eg you will be ok. Flush your shower pump same way. Bolier will be fine its never had such lovely clean water in its life. Get going tho its Thursday good fitters will be busy. centralheatking
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Hello
Well if anyone does know what chemicals I could use then i would appreciate it. I have found out that his insurance liability of £2million does not cover ANYTHING that he has worked on. Only damage caused i.e spilt water from radiator like magnetide stain on the carpet. This cements the fact that I definately cannot get him back to rectify because if he causes more damage then i am not covered. The only plus is that i haven't paid him. But I am pleased to hear that the boiler is probably ok. The shower pump I guess may not be ok.
[automerge]1574950556[/automerge]


So does my cold storage tank in the loft need emptying as well and cleaning? Should I get someone else in who is gas safe registered as well and get them to clean the cylinder and flush through everything?
[automerge]1574950751[/automerge]

Central heating king, do you think I should get him back or now that i know he's not covered for the work mistake use someone else? I don't want any nasty chemicals on my young son .

no bluntly tell us where you are maybe PF list can assist chking
[automerge]1574951036[/automerge]

Hello
Well if anyone does know what chemicals I could use then i would appreciate it. I have found out that his insurance liability of £2million does not cover ANYTHING that he has worked on. Only damage caused i.e spilt water from radiator like magnetide stain on the carpet. This cements the fact that I definately cannot get him back to rectify because if he causes more damage then i am not covered. The only plus is that i haven't paid him. But I am pleased to hear that the boiler is probably ok. The shower pump I guess may not be ok.
[automerge]1574950556[/automerge]


So does my cold storage tank in the loft need emptying as well and cleaning? Should I get someone else in who is gas safe registered as well and get them to clean the cylinder and flush through everything?
[automerge]1574950751[/automerge]

Central heating king, do you think I should get him back or now that i know he's not covered for the work mistake use someone else? I don't want any nasty chemicals on my young son .

no
[automerge]1574951222[/automerge]

Gas leak detection spray is good to get rid of the black stains from mag sludge, on carpets but not sure if it works after a few days, Bluntly as I outlined before take naughty cylinder out and flush and then when its back in just run loads of water through the whole system most of these chemicals are quite benign and diluted 1000x eg you will be ok. Flush your shower pump same way. Bolier will be fine its never had such lovely clean water in its life. Get going tho its Thursday good fitters will be busy. centralheatking
[automerge]1574951009[/automerge]

no bluntly tell us where you are maybe PF list can assist chking
[automerge]1574951036[/automerge]

no

sometimes on PF we get horror stories and its 50/50 customer and fitter and we have to be diplomatic ...we are fitters afterall ..this one is very naughty I am off out
centralheatking

 

[Finn321]

Gas leak detection spray is good to get rid of the black stains from mag sludge, on carpets but not sure if it works after a few days, Bluntly as I outlined before take naughty cylinder out and flush and then when its back in just run loads of water through the whole system most of these chemicals are quite benign and diluted 1000x eg you will be ok. Flush your shower pump same way. Bolier will be fine its never had such lovely clean water in its life. Get going tho its Thursday good fitters will be busy. centralheatking
[automerge]1574951009[/automerge]

no bluntly tell us where you are maybe PF list can assist chking
[automerge]1574951036[/automerge]

no
[automerge]1574951222[/automerge]

sometimes on PF we get horror stories and its 50/50 customer and fitter and we have to be diplomatic ...we are fitters afterall ..this one is very naughty I am off out
centralheatking

Thank you for putting my mind at rest re boiler. I live in Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire if you can recommend anyone. Thank you
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[automerge]1574964619[/automerge]

Thank you for putting my mind at rest re boiler. I live in Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire if you can recommend anyone. Thank you
[automerge]1574964354[/automerge]

The Plumber has come back to me and offered to put everything right free of charge. So I will not be paying him anything. I have asked him to put in writing what he indends to do but he is refusing to do this and just repeats that he will be it right...mmm i would rather hear it from him as to what he intends to do in case he is planning on only rotating the cylinder and dashing off before he has cleaned it out. Any advice from you plumber out there after whats happened. I haven't paid him a penny yet...