IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi Grav? | Boilers | Plumbers Forums
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Discuss IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi Grav? in the Boilers area at Plumbers Forums

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Q1). RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: Vented/Semi Gravity CH System?
or feasibly this would prevent the CH system from working properly, as it lacks the force to supply water in an upwards direction even with an EXTERNAL PUMP after the CH BOILERS FLOW output.

BOILER: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30
EXTERNAL PUMP: RavenHeat Rs25 40/60/88w
CONDITION: CH System is in good working order, Room Temp Max 22ºC & RADs total within BTU MAX
BOILER: 1st floor in BEDROOM
EXPANSION TANK: 2nd floor in LOFT

Hence want to put new RAD on 2nd floor the LOFT above BOILER & EXPANSION TANK.

But there is NOT adequate room to move the CH BOILER into the 2nd floor in LOFT, however the EXPANSION TANK could be repositioned HIGHER UP then existing to be ABOVE future/potential/hypothetical RAD in LOFT.

I'm guessing from existing manual diagrams that accurately depict the current existing CH system install, it could be described as a VENTED/SEMI GRAVITY, it is CENTRAL HEATING only with no provision for DHW. Some of my family are plumbers however since they're young their education/training is of simpler pressurized Combi's, and old now redundant/obsolete systems before their time is guess work instead of actual factual knowledge. Also I spoke to Ideal and 'A PLUMBER' I spoke to say it relies on Gravity hence RADS are below the BOILER ONLY and obviously the EXPANSION TANK is above the CH BOILER to provide it with a greater abundance of water then just the COLD FEED.

After reading the IDEAL BOILERS MANUFACTURERS manual of this old MODEL made in 1984 thoroughly
I can't find any reference to positioning of Reds just below BOILER, however at the time it may have been implied as the common system of the time & Plumbers instinctively that then, but it might not matter just not mentioned then because loft conversions weren't popular.

So far each Plumber I spoken to so far has had a different opinion or recommendation, and I presume a lot of this has to do with their familiarity or lack of it, and their preference to suggest chucking the old system & fitting a Combi as compromises of less external bits!

Contradictory Suggestions so far:
I) RADS must be below CH BOILER & EXPANSION TANK
ii) RADS must be below EXPANSION TANK
iii) RADS can be above CH BOILER
iv) Chuck the old Boiler lot & fit Combi that would heat RAD above boiler regardless because it's pressurized
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Lot of words, whats the question?

Get a plumber/heating engineer in.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

The rads need to be below the expansion tank. Don't have to be below the boiler (don't use that person)
if the boiler has an overheat stat fitted, you can convert to a pressurised system and do away with the expansion tank, then fit your rad in the loft room.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

SEALED! Not pressurised!

If your boiler is suitable for a SEALED system your pipework might not be.

Get it tested, I wouldn't push the system pressure beyond half a bar anyway.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Lot of words, whats the question? Get a plumber/heating engineer in.

What's the Question! In more brief words:
Q1). Will the CH SYSTEM Boiler Idea Elan2 RS32 work as normal/intended "IF" a RAD was fitted above the CH BOILER & EXPANSION TANK?

The Boiler manufacturer Ideal/Standard/StelRad say absolutely not, however Plumbers opinions differ wildly, and in 1st instance I'm more inclined to believe the Makers instead of somebody who fits them.

Get a Plumber in? Fitting a RAD with FLOW & RETURN is easy after continuing pipework, but the point of contention here, is that this would be pointless, if current/existing CH BOILER installation doesn't support it!

Apparently what's been said in this post already if true, if Expansion Tank is above highest RAD then the CH SYSTEM can refill itself & perform as normal on commissioning/first use again.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

STOP SHOUTING!!

simple answer. It won't work.
with an open vented heating system like yours. The top of your new radiator must be at least 600mm BELOW. ( shouting) the feed and expansion cystern.

in short it will be empy!
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

There must be some very thick "plumbers" around!
Basic stuff.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

What's the Question! In more brief words:
Q1). Will the CH SYSTEM Boiler Idea Elan2 RS32 work as normal/intended "IF" a RAD was fitted above the CH BOILER & EXPANSION TANK?

The Boiler manufacturer Ideal/Standard/StelRad say absolutely not, however Plumbers opinions differ wildly, and in 1st instance I'm more inclined to believe the Makers instead of somebody who fits them.

Get a Plumber in? Fitting a RAD with FLOW & RETURN is easy after continuing pipework, but the point of contention here, is that this would be pointless, if current/existing CH BOILER installation doesn't support it!

Apparently what's been said in this post already if true, if Expansion Tank is above highest RAD then the CH SYSTEM can refill itself & perform as normal on commissioning/first use again.

Why do you have to use a thousand words when 10 will do. Jesus.

1. If the plumbers in your family are not familiar with a non sealed system, then they are not plumbers.

2. If its so flaming easy why are you asking a basic question that a first year apprentice could answer.

3. Your out of your depth, I respect people who know their own limits. Unfortunately you are not one of those people.

Again, get somebody in who knows exactly what they are doing. Maybe you have already and you have gone on as you have in your two posts, in which case I can understand why nobody wants to help.

Ive used a few more words than the two I would have liked to use, but the forum would have blanked out the first one.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

SEALED! Not pressurised!

If your boiler is suitable for a SEALED system your pipework might not be.

Get it tested, I wouldn't push the system pressure beyond half a bar anyway.

knew I would be pulled up on that one as soon as I posted it.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

As Phoenix & Chalkie have pointed out in their opinion Exp Tank & Cold Feed re-position above RAD, then CH Boiler can fill up Rad & heat as intended. or fit Combi then RAD position doesn’t matter.

Why ask? Well since the CH Boiler Manual does Not mention/diagram Rads layout past the CH Boiler & Pump, then the knowledge to fit Rads only below Exp Tank, is implied as already known but not said or written, hence the question involving setting the scene, so to speak, as semi gravity is not terminology used in the installation/user manual, just what I’ve surmised from the internet or concluded in passing conversation.

& since the CH Boiler is an obsolete model the expertise of the manufacturers Ideal maybe limited to a quick glance at a 1980's manual, schematics & tech specs, with a momentary contemplation to sum up its limitations, hence is what they said right? Or an ambiguous/vague comment, or totally factually correct. A rhetorical statement not a question.

Anyway Modern Day Plumbers once apprentices, know of modern systems hence COMBI's, I'm not a Plumber never said I was, I couldn't find a Plumbing Forum, Plumbers Forum was the nearest!

Anyway the task of fitting Rads is easy, mount onto wall brackets, fit Rad TRV & valves, cut 15mm Copper Pipes with PipeCutter & join pipe lengths with pushfit T's & Corners, I appreciate Plumbers are likely to Solder Joints, this isn't specialized at all it's just much cheaper then JG etc, but I would rarely use a Solder BlowTorch, so push fit is my prerogative. Obviously fitting CH Boilers is a bit more involved & time consuming especially in an existing house & not a new build housing plot, obviously PushFit are inappropriate for Gas pipes as appropriately labeled / described for water pipes only, presumably something to do with pressure & being air tight.

I appreciate CH BOILER installation is a skilled profession but apart from installing RADS the main tasks would start with turning off the Gas Mains, then mounting Boiler & Flu/Vent, hence then a Blow Torch & Solder Joints are then a necessity not a choice.

And the Plumbers I know only do their work at work, and can't be bothered with entering into a conversation about plumbing. They simply said why bother with repositioning Exp Tank just to heat the Loft.

Also since plumbing isn't my profession I contemplated, that the PUMP after the BOILER Flow possibly this could have meant something other then a Semi-Gravity of water direction other then just around & down of Flow. So don't condescend, as other people may refer to this post for an answer to their simple question about adding to their existing older style CH Boiler.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Your boiler has an OH stat.

Seal the system.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Your boiler has an OH stat.

Seal the system.

now we'll be asked about prvs and expansion vessels, whether to use balloon or membrane versions, what size prv to fit, where to fit it, higher or lower than boiler etc etc, when employing a decent plumber would provide all the answers in one lump :)
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

I think the ideals incorporate a foo foo valve just incase.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

I know they've an oh stat. The foofoo might need to be installed elsewhere on the system.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Get a new boiler FFS and get someone decent to fit it, maybe update your system too ;)
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

I see the responses are'nt getting smaller.

So what engineering discipline do you work in.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Brain surgeon working on rocket scientists :)
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Having read all of this I`ve got a headache!
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

to the op - I think you had some good advice in post no 2.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Update your system, gd joke, since my 1980's CH Boiler averages Gas Consumption of 12 Gas Kwh per hour, I think compares well to modern Combi, Worcester quoted 10 Gas Kwh per hour & 0.150 Elec Kwh when being used, hence for 2 Gas Kwh per hour difference & typical £2k supply & fit install cost think my mechanical timer etc is ok as not bothered about a WiFi Timer/Temp Ctrl from HoneyWell.profession, who cares, security, ex Elec & ex Admin of Business Training Engineering/Construction apprentices of PetroChem Industry.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Usage of gas does not equate to efficiency pal. No one's joking.

You, at this moment in time, are trying to polish a turd.
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

got to be 25 years old?
 
Re: IDEAL ELAN 2 RS30: RAD above height of CH Boiler & Expansion Tank? Vented/Semi G

Polishing turds, an excellent Mythbusters episode.

I just love that phrase.
 
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