INTERGAS. Use of Fitting Kit / Offset Flue on an HRE Open Vent boiler

[Stan]

Hello, from South Devon.

Firstly - I'm not a Gas Safe RGI.

I'm considering my options to replace a 23 year old |Ideal Classic FanFare 50,000 kw open vent boiler which works OK but could well terminally fail and I want to be prepared (I'm thinking another fan, gas valve or PCB would be the last straw).

My (14 smallish) rads and HW cylinder give a calculation of a total 15.2kw using a Mears calculator.

The condensate run is in place and all ready, and a new three core plus earth cable is also in place between pump (airing cupboard on 1st floor) and the boiler (in the garage attached to the house) in case it's required for pump over run / switched live etc.

A Spirotech MB3 magnetic filter is installed on the system.

An option could be Ideal MAX 15kw Heat Only (with the rear flue option and with their own magnetic filter) fitted by my tame Gas Safe RGI (he likes Ideals and is familar with them) ....

.... or possibly an Intergas 18 HRE Open Vent. Cost of both is fairly similar.

Ten year warranty on Ideal - seven year on Intergas.

Intergas have said their boiler does NOT have to be fitted by a Platinum 5 installer in order to get the 7 yr warranty - just Gas Safe.

My mate (the tame Gas safe installer) hasn't touched anything by Intergas before (but is currently looking and researching).

What I'm asking is connected to the 'Fitting Kit A' (Small) and the offset flue.

The wall is single skin 100mm thick (reconstituted stone block).

I just spoke to Craig at Intergas and was told that my installer would, in order to centralise the flue, have to use an offset flue, part 081298) in order to avoid clashing with the flow and return which are, as we know, on the top left corner of the boiler. He "advised" the use of the fitting kit/jig/frame as without it the flue would impinge on the wall and the wall would need to be "chamfered" (chiselled out) in order to allow the flue to sit correctly.

He said you buy the 'Fitting Kit A' but don't use the expansion vessel (seems a bit of a waste).

If anyone has fitted an HRE OV and been faced with the need to use the offset flue and/or the jig would they be good enough to say how it went ... and confirm I'm getting my facts right.

Plan B would simply be to fit the Ideal Heat Only boiler with the rear flue option, use their magnetic filter and have 10 years warranty (and hope they stuck to it and didn't wriggle out of it for some reason).

Intergas have confirmed they don't stipulate any particular inhibitor/additive on commision - and will approve any make of magnetic filter. Other manufacturers do state which additives they approve and which magnetic filter.

Hope it's not too lengthy a query .... and thanks in anticipation.

 

[king of pipes]

Either will do the job well but for your property location of the flue and your installers knowledge I would go with the Ideal I have fitted both the Intergas can be tricky and the offset flue needs a fitting to centre it . Kop

 

[Stan]

Many thanks.

Incidentally apologies for describing my current boiler as a 50,000 kw - I guess the error was spotted but overlooked.

I wish I hadn't seen so many people online criticizing Ideal, especially following the Isar / Icos debacle and continuing to say Ideal's are a piece of crap - not helped by the cracking on the Logic HEX sumps that I now see a lot of. Even my mate has a cracked Ideal sump in the back of his van (for some reason?)

I have to say the simplicity of a one for one Ideal swap with no flue complications plus familiarity of my mate re. Ideal plus the likely improved performance of the Ideal brass magnetic filter (compared to my Spiro which has the magnets on the OUTSIDE) plus the apparent 10 year warranty all appeals.

Very interested to hear your reply. Being inquisitive it raises more questions concerning the Intergas, i.e. why didn't Craig at Intergas tell me there's a need for a 'fitting' to install it correctly (what is the fitting called and where would my installer get it? Or does it come with the jig, or the offset flue maybe?

Also, I think your photo seems to show flow and return at the bottom - is it a HRE OV? As you know, my query related somewhat to the flow and return supplies being top left. More uncertainty on my behalf.

Finally (for now) you mention the Intergas can be tricky to fit. In all honesty I've seen forum reviews that say it's dead simple and I've seen reports that coincide entirely with your own experience but I don't have the experience or knowledge to know what's tricky about installation. I've seen fitters online say the thing is easy to fit and for the customer to operate but other fitters say the same as you. The supplier in Mid Devon (Rawle Gammon Baker) who I spoke to today was of the opinion they're a piece of cake and said they are popular in his area (and, indeed, there are several Platinum 5 installers in Okehampton - but Exeter way they're seemingly much thinner on the ground).

I'd love to gain more knowledge and would value any snippts that come my way.

Thanks.

 

[king of pipes]

I am a P5 installer myself the boiler pictured is a open vent the one above is a combi which I posted to give you a idea of what the flue will look like, as I said if flueing horizontally then the offset adapter will be needed to clear the flow and return pipework and centre the flue, Ideal have indeed had problems in the past but seem to have ironed out alot of them out now and are offering up to 10year warranty on some of their boilers I fit both and I really like the vogue but its no good for OV, really is a personal choice. Kop

 

[Jerry]

Longest warranty for the cheapest price. Dontworry about the difficulty in the fitting. It's not your problem.

I fit both Ideal and Intergas. I would only fit Intergas Combi's because I believe the technology is better.

Why aren't you converting from open vent to pressurised?

 

[Stan]

Further thanks.

Appreciate the photo of both Combi and OV boilers (and I just love to see neat pipework too).

I think I now realise that the extra "fitting" that you mentioned as being required in your initial reply is in fact the extra offset bend needed to kick over to the centre.

Incidentally, what is the make of magnetic filter installed? My Spirotech MB3 is all brass, and not dissimilar - but the one you've fitted looks a bit like the Ideal filter. I favour the idea of an internal magnet (as found in most of the others) rather than the two external magnets on my Spirotech.

I've studied the Worcester and Vaillant alternatives and despite their MANY proponents I feel reasonably settled to choose between Ideal and Intergas andI feel I now have more background to both of those and that it will be one or other but the Ideal is very much the easier option for the reasons we've spoken about.

There are one or two VERY ardent Intergas men on the DIYNOT forum and if you listened solely to them you'd never consider ANYTHING other than Intergas - and their input has added to the sum of my knowledge, as did my conversation with the Intergas supplier in Okehampton yesterday. However, in my case, it's very much swings and roundabouts and, as has been said, either would do the job - but thanks for the advice.

I'm very happy to hear the views that others might put forward.

 

[Stan]

Longest warranty for the cheapest price. Dontworry about the difficulty in the fitting. It's not your problem.

I fit both Ideal and Intergas. I would only fit Intergas Combi's because I believe the technology is better.

Why aren't you converting from open vent to pressurised?

Very worthy question and one I've given much thought to.

Let me confess to being someone who worries about things that others wouldn't even think about.

The house is on an estate and was built by builders who left the new occupants plenty of rectification to get sorted. I think the polite word is "snagging". The heating and plumbing wasn't great and I don't have total confidence in the work carried out - but that's just water under the bridge. The system is 23 years old and comprises 22mm (obviously) then I believe there's probably some hidden 15mm but all the feeds to the rads (upstairs and down) are 10mm. My first floor flooring is 8' x 4' chipboard, not "proper" floorboards and the house is decorated and carpeted in such a manner that I don't want to risk having to lift chipboard flooring or re-plaster any ceilings or mess about taking carpet up. I've never had access to the manifold and don't know what condition it looks to be in.

And I just feel that pressurising the system is adding to the possibility that I may find water dribbling through the ceiling one day. The F and E tank is clean, easily accessible and well insulated and is a handy means of regularly topping up the inhibitor. The pump is also very accessible (I just changed it for a new Grundfos and it has 5 yr warranty).

And finally I favour the simplicity of a Heat Only boiler with no built in pump or EV.

I WILL admit that the System Boiler has advantages as in getting rid of the F and E plus having the EV and pump all under the same Manu. warranty - plus it probably results in a cleaner system due to not being exposed to atmosphere but, I'm a simple individual and the simpler system seems to sit more comfortably.

The Ideal Vogue would have been the first choice if I did go for a System Boiler and, to some degree, I regret that I couldn't have fitted one given it's stainless HEX.

 

[king of pipes]

Probably wise to stick to OV choice of boiler is really down to you and the installer either will do the job well, if it's in a kitchen environment I would favour the Intergas as it has a metal powder coated caseing not convinced these plastic casings fitted on Ideals and Baxis will stand the test of time but I could be proved wrong , the filter in the picture is a Fernox Omega filter and is a well made unit being all brass construction. Good luck kop

 

[Stan]

Thanks. As per original post ( admittedly a bit of a long way back) the boiler's in the garage (attached to house).

As you say, it'll definitely be OV - of that we can be sure.

Ah yes, the Fernox Omega .. it had caught my eye in the past and if we don't go for the Ideal, with its own brass filter, then that would be the one. Ta for reminding me (it's looking more and more like it'll be the Ideal though).

Appreciate your time and trouble.

 

[Jerry]

Good luck!

If you go OV, then pour a small bottle of inhibitor in the system every year, when you have the boiler serviced.

 

[Stan]

Good luck!

If you go OV, then pour a small bottle of inhibitor in the system every year, when you have the boiler serviced.

Trust me on that one

Since 2013 I've been somewhat [over]enthusiastic - fitting the Spirotech MB3 filter, taking rads off and flushing them through, using Sentinel X400 (once) and X100 (annually) - and between 2017 to now I've put 5 litres of Calmag Calchem "three in one" from Toolstation.

The filter does, still collect bits of magnetite and collects dirty water but the system water is bordering on the almost crystal clear.

If I go Ideal Max (which has the Ideal filter in the box) how ridiculous does it sound to fit the new Ideal filter (on the return next to the boiler, as per normal) BUT to keep my Spirotech in the system! Two filters!

 

[Jerry]

I can see any problems with having two filters. Probably best to fit them in parallel and not series.

 

[Stan]

Ta. But you've got me regarding parallel vs series. They must both go in the 22mm return and one will be just before the boiler ... and unsure where you're suggesting the other goes?

 

[Jerry]

Don't fit both filters in a line (series). Try splitting the return pipework and fit them side by side ( parallel)

 

[Stan]

OK. I see what you're saying but didn't envisage splitting the return. But understood, ta.

 

[Jerry]

well. it might work...

 

[Stan]

On reflection - I'll just fit one.

 

[Jerry]

Put the old one one the flow! Do it and take pictures and use it to wind up the plumbers here..

 

[Stan]

Yes, I did see that the matter of putting Mag. filters on the flow ruffled feathers.

Although it has to be said. Since doing a bit of researching I realise there's no concensus on anything.

There's no one item that attracts agreement - EXCEPT no-one likes BG.

I have no axe to grin, but won't be employing BG.