Jointing copper to gas pipe??

[bob the plumber]

HSE Safety In The Installation And Use Of Gas Systems And Appliances
Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 Approved Code Of Practice and Guidance

Regulation 5(2).57 - Appliances or meters may be connected to existing lead piping using suitable fittings, provided that piping is in a safe condition e.g there is no sign of damage.

Correct me if im wrong but for the last 3 years ive been ripping out old gas pipes, and have been outpriced on jobs where i have believed i have needed to replace the lead in order to meet regs. I read by chance this snipet at college, what do you make of it?

 

[bob the plumber]

jointing copper to lead gas pipe it should say in the post title

 

[Blackcatgas]

You name me a suitable fitting to join lead to copper (on a gas pipe)?.
Genuine question, does anybody know?

 

[bob the plumber]

why cant you just sweat it on, if its safe and tested for tightness? dont go thinking im a cowboy, never done anything like that in my short time as a plumber/training gas fitter but like i said, if its safe and tight then why not? i would like someone to tell me that im wrong and let me know that i am doing the job correctly

 

[thereisawizza]

I think you're still allowed to do a taft joint? I'd say you were doing the right thing by ripping it out tho!

 

[bob the plumber]

I think you're still allowed to do a taft joint? I'd say you were doing the right thing by ripping it out tho!

i may sound daft but what is a taft joint? cheers

 

[thereisawizza]

It's the one where you use a turpin to swage out the end and sweat a piece of tinned copper in, wiping lead to fill the cupped part. Proper old scholl, but I think it's still allowed!

 

[thereisawizza]

PS, these are all words my old man called them so may have proper names

 

[bob the plumber]

PS, these are all words my old man called them so may have proper names

haha i know what you mean, i know it as sweating lead to copper, not something ive done on the job, might have a practice. I lost out on a job a few weeks back. I quoted on a boiler job for a friend and i explained to him that because he had lead 1 inch off the meter i would have to take it out which would have increased the price by a good few hundred quid at least. I lost that job because i believed i couldnt connect to the lead, which you actually can if its in good nick. His meter came off in 3/4 lead and teed off in multiple directions under the floor, would have been a nightmare and expensice for him for me to pick all his appliances up in copper and rip it out, i was under the impression that would need to be done. never mind hey

 

[kirkgas]

from a trainer (read Victor Meldrew) point of view!!!!!
IF you decide the lead is sound and connect to it and test it and confirm it is still sound when you have finished it is allowed, however in the big bad world in which you all work the reality is that if you do all the above and at some point it leaks someone/everyone will say "tut tut you should have ripped it out" and the HSE (because of a leak) will take the view that you didnt take all due care and attention by leaving it in and will batter you about the ears with a bit of the lead.

 

[Reg Man]

If in doubt have it out.

 

[tamz]

If you have never had experience of doing this then it is not as easy as it seems. Most will not have this experience therefore it is discouraged.
There are a couple of different ways to do it either using a fine flame blowlamp or a soldering bolt.
Done properly it is as strong as any other joint but if you don't know how to just upgrade it and be safe.

 

[REDSAW]

Correct me if im wrong but for the last 3 years ive been ripping out old gas pipes, and have been outpriced on jobs where i have believed i have needed to replace the lead in order to meet regs. I read by chance this snipet at college, what do you make of it?

so how have you missed out on gas work if your not qualified to do it?. curios, but good question though.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

lead jointing is acceptable but you should ideally rip it out,as tamz says its not easy to do a lead to copper weld you will need a shave hook,tallow and lead stick heat the copper and know how /when to apply the lead

 

[bob the plumber]

so how have you missed out on gas work if your not qualified to do it?. curios, but good question though.

i have been doing it 3 years(Oil,NG,LPG), ill hold my hands up. Its all been under the supervision of a qualified engineer though so i think everyones happy, currently doing my ACS at the moment so if all goes well it wont be long till im signing off jobs myself. The boss/guy i work with allows me now to price up jobs for him and if i pull them off i get a cut on top of my wage. Im happy, the boss is happy and ultimatley the customer is happy and most importantly we stay quite busy. We have always ripped out old lead and ive never worked a job or known of one ive been on where we have joined to lead pipe, my boss has always said its a big no no, but its good to know that if i can cut 400 quid off a job because of a incredibly tricky gas lead pipe scenerio it can be worked with if done safely!

Bloomin Love this forum, ive learnt loads through reading the posts, thanks all

 

[thereisawizza]

Following this post last night, went out to the garage and dug out my Dad's old lead stuff, really looks like the sort of stuff you wouldn't look twice at in a boot fair but worth it's weight in gold every 5 years or so......

 

[metaldust9]

am sure the regs say you carnt join on to it or reuse it but can leave it in if its in sound condition and no leaks ,done it on acs last yr looked everywhere in the viper book for it cos it was one of the question so am 99% certon but ye never no could be wrong am gunner look for it cos its bugging me now

 

[tamz]

You can do it if you really need to but if you can just change it.

From BS6891

6.1 General
Materials used for gas installation pipes and fittings shall conform to the British Standards listed
in 6.2, 6.3, 6.4, 6.5 and/or 6.6, as appropriate.
COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 6.1
When selecting materials for use as installation pipes, consideration should be given to strength, appearance, cost and the need for protection against corrosion (see Clause 9). The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 [1] state that lead or lead alloy pipes supplying gas are not to be installed.
However, historically, lead pipes were used to install gas meters and lead alloy pipes (known as lead composition pipes) were installed as installation pipes and can still be found in old housing stock. Providing this material is in good condition, sound, well supported and is of adequate size, connection may be made to steel or copper pipework using appropriate fittings (see Clause 7).

8.3.3 Connecting lead composition pipes
When lead composition pipes are encountered and any connection joint has to be made, then only a soldered cup joint onto copper pipe or a suitable brass union fitting shall be made. Compression fittings designed for jointing water weight lead pipework shall not be used.
COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 8.3.3
It is essential that care be taken when soldering a joint onto lead composition pipework as blow lamps might provide too much heat at the joint.
Lead solder should be used for this purpose. It is essential that joints be mechanically strong and gas tight.

 

[stevetheplumber]

gas fitters used to do very small taft type joints using tinmans solder and a blowlamp they were just run in rather than wiped like a plumber joint

 

[Blackcatgas]

If you have never had experience of doing this then it is not as easy as it seems. Most will not have this experience therefore it is discouraged.
There are a couple of different ways to do it either using a fine flame blowlamp or a soldering bolt.
Done properly it is as strong as any other joint but if you don't know how to just upgrade it and be safe.

I cant do it.

 

[bob the plumber]

am sure the regs say you carnt join on to it or reuse it but can leave it in if its in sound condition and no leaks ,done it on acs last yr looked everywhere in the viper book for it cos it was one of the question so am 99% certon but ye never no could be wrong am gunner look for it cos its bugging me now

you can do it, i think i will but only in extreme circumstances. In the 3 years ive done the job, ive only come across one job where it would have been beneficial

 

[SafeGasInstall]

never have come across a led pipe on gas ..
estate agent today asked can I do A landlord safety check where there is 2 mbar drop (no smell )
me; how do you know about a leak
ea;some one has tested it
me;why did he not give you certificate
ea:he was concern for safety
me :so what makes you believe that I will not be concern for safety ?
ea: I can get some one to sign it off but can you do it
me: I will not install any new appliance to 2 mbar drop cos concern for safety ,so same apply for LLS
ea; so you going to loose a job
me : yes I do sign the paper not you ,so thx
phone dawn

 

[psk]

fairplay maty

 

[gasmarc]

i have come across a few lead pipes but would never join copper to lead,

 

[Pssst]

Resurrecting this now rather old thread....

I was schooled in the art of doing both lead gas and water joints. I spent weeks faffing around with lead straighteners,lead beaters,turnpins,bent bolts,Bars of Grade D,wiping clothes etc...

Really the only time the black art now comes into play usually involves connecting to or repairing someones lead pipe, usually in domestic premises.

I've had a run of them lately and you never loose it.

Of course the golden rule is always test before you do anything.

Some 25 years ago, i used to have in my toolbag, a useful clamp which was metal and adjustable and was used to firmly hold two bits together so that you could do your lead joint without it falling to bits as you worked on it and spattering you with molten solder and pipe!

Needless to say,said clamp has long gone awol.

I guess you cant get them any more? Maybe I'll have to make something?