Large water bill and hot water question

[Mike D]

Hello all, I didn't know such a forum existed, but I'm glad I found you

This months water bill has quadrupled! :blush5:
Apparently for the last 6 months we have been using 4 x the water. We have a contract with British Gas and they came out and found 2 leaks. The first was the seal in the toilet cistern and the second smaller leak was in the cold water tank ball cock (I think).
Ah well, have to pay the bill then

As a result of these fixes the engineer turned off the water at the stopcock then after fixing the problems he turned it back on. However the cold water pressure is noticeably less than before (through the tap).
Presumably the stopcock is not turned on as far as it was previously.

Having said that, we now notice that the hot water comes through much faster than it did previously.
Would the two be connected?

For information we have an old style heating system with a tank in the roof space (not a combi), if that helps.

Thanks for any information you can give me :8:

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Did he drain the water tank in the loft at all?
Sounds like theirs air in the cold down service.

 

[Mike D]

Ch4 plumbing, thanks for the reply, no he did not.

 

[Mike D]

Also just to clarify, water does come out of the hot tap as soon as the tap is opened but it's cold for a long time, even though there is hot water in the tank.
With a lower pressure in the cold water system it "appears" that this delay in the arrival of hot water is reduced.

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Okay, it sounds like your hot is gravity fed from the cold water storage cistern in the loft down to the hot water cylinder and then too your taps, and the cold water is possibly directly off of the incoming cold main?

if this is the case in the first instance the higher pressure of the cold main can/will push the hot water back up the pipe and you get a delayed time on the arrival of hot water until you have "balanced" the supply. With the pressure turned down it is less likely that the cold is overrunning the hot so much but this can only be the case if you have mixer taps fitted!

i should have asked what tap it's happening at?

 

[iiplumbing]

Hello all, I didn't know such a forum existed, but I'm glad I found you

This months water bill has quadrupled! :blush5:
Apparently for the last 6 months we have been using 4 x the water. We have a contract with British Gas and they came out and found 2 leaks. The first was the seal in the toilet cistern and the second smaller leak was in the cold water tank ball cock (I think).
Ah well, have to pay the bill then

As a result of these fixes the engineer turned off the water at the stopcock then after fixing the problems he turned it back on. However the cold water pressure is noticeably less than before (through the tap).
Presumably the stopcock is not turned on as far as it was previously.

Having said that, we now notice that the hot water comes through much faster than it did previously.
Would the two be connected?

For information we have an old style heating system with a tank in the roof space (not a combi), if that helps.

Thanks for any information you can give me :8:

Hi Mike D

That sounds like an awfully big "leak" if it was just those two items that needed fixing.

Do yourself a favour, with all water shut off, have a look at the meter, if the dial is still spinning, you've got yourself another leak, if not tell me what seal in the cistern was "fixed" and what was "leaking" from the ball cock.

From there I can triage your actual issue, I.e. if the ball cock was letting by (water dripping/running into cold water tank) then your overflow/warning pipe would have also been running with the same amount of water (but not all the time for reasons I will explain another time)

Hope this helps

Russ

 

[Mike D]

ch4 plumbing, there are normal taps everywhere except the kitchen sink, which is a mixer tap and where the biggest delay in getting hot water is present. And yes, cold from the mains and gravity fed hot water is correct.
Thanks for your explanation.

iiplumbing, thanks for your reply.
I worked out the supposed leak(s) for the last 6 months according to the water utilities meter readings. It appears that approximately 150 - 160 gallons a day have gone missing! For up to 6 months! That's a lot of water and I had visions of the house disappearing in to a hole!

I too wondered why such a leak on the cistern could account for such a water loss. I still do.

Reading the meter is a problem (which is why I'll complain to the utility). It's under water!
When I open the grid top and look in I don't even see the meter - just water.
Consequently I don't really know how I was supposed to notice a leak, having no over-flow and not being able to read the meter.

When the Gas man checked the pressure it showed nearly 4 bar (on an outside tap).
When the stopcock was shut off the pressure immediately dropped to nothing.
After checking/repairing the cistern and the ball cock in the cold water tank he tested it again and this time the pressure held at just under 4 bar when the stopcock was closed.
He was happy that the toilet cistern could cause the loss of so much water.

Thanks for your time

 

[Mike D]

The seal above is what was changed in the cistern.
There was no leakage from the overflow pipe at all. He did say the leak in the water tank was very small and that he had tightened up something on the ball cock.

 

[iiplumbing]

Seems you leak might be where the water meter is

that chamber should be dry

water meter itself may be faulty don't pay bill

 

[Mike D]

Thanks iiplumbing, could the meter chamber just be failing to drain rainwater? Obviously I'll know more when the United Utilities man has been on Monday. That's nearly 2 weeks since it was reported so they don't seem to be too worried by the huge leak.
I'm hoping there's a leak at the meter but I'll just have to wait and see.
When the U.U. man has been I may be in a better position to question things - hopefully!
Thanks again.

 

[Mike D]

I take it that I'm responsible for the "house side" of the meter?

Incidentally, how long does moderation of my posts last? It's a bind replying immediately only for the post to appear hours later.

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

agree. any chance to siphon water out to see if it raise again?

 

[Mike D]

galaxy_plumbing, I haven't really got anything to try that with. Presumably the United Utilities man would have equipment for that. I'd also like him to see it how it is at the moment, tbh.
Monday is D-day. I'll update this thread after his visit.

 

[Dotty]

I take it that I'm responsible for the "house side" of the meter?

Incidentally, how long does moderation of my posts last? It's a bind replying immediately only for the post to appear hours later.

As long as it takes. We're volunteers and have to go out to work as well you know!

 

[iiplumbing]

Mike

with regard to trying to bail out the chamber I'm afraid I probably use equipment far to advanced for most users, however just to be helpful - this is what I do (don't forget you may have to make a special and expensive purchase to do this!

I get a plastic cup that's small enough to fit in the hole but large enough to hold quite a bit of water. Then I use a good quality car sponge to soak up any water that I can't bail out with cup.

The chamber should be dry with no ability for excessive rainwater to get in, if its full of water then there's something wrong!!

If its full it would most likely be the meter sprung a leak itself (wouldn't be the first time) and would account for your excessive bill and no apparent 100's of gallons of water in the house

Regards

Russ

 

[Mike D]

iiplumbing, thanks again.

croppie, I meant is there a number of posts made before moderation stops - not the amount of time it takes to be moderated.

 

[tomplumb83]

Try getting rid of the water in the chamber first. You can buy a wet vac for £30 if you don't want to get your hands dirty. If that stays dry I think you require the services of your local plumber

 

[Mike D]

tomplum83, I have thought about that but I want the United Utilities man to see it the way it is now, which will be on Monday. He can then judge whether or not there is a leak at the meter.
Thanks for the suggestion though

 

[Mike D]

An update.
The United Utilities man came out and investigated further.
When the stopcock is turned off there is a slight movement in the meter (he cleaned out the meter hole) meaning that there's still a leak in the house. It's not very much he says but it was turning slowly.
He's happy that the service pipe is not leaking.

British Gas (Dynorod) are coming out again tomorrow to try to find the leak.

I'll be back!