I've read and used some valuable info. over the years on here so thanks for that. However I need some more direct info. if possible. I have an old but reliable Worcester/Bosch 2.4i combi boiler, but recently I've noticed a leak from the central heating flow isolation valve. I've tried Fernox leak sealer and a few others but alas no joy. So I imagine my next step is to replace the isolation valve. The question I am asking is do I need to drain down the entire system to replace, and would this be a special valve (as it is secured to the bulkhead plate with a nut and so may have a longer thread on one side) or would one from any plumbers merchant do?. Thanks in anticipation
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
Discuss Leaking boiler isolation valve in the Boilers area at Plumbers Forums
A
Aquarius
Is it a 24i or 24i Greenstar junior? Post a photo of underneath. If the boiler is highest point, no need to drain whole system, just the leg of boiler - please do not remove the cover as this may form part of combustion circuit. See if there’s drain off local to pipe.
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A
Aquarius
Ok, so the system will need to be drained, so you’ll need the part plus inhibitor. It’s not a 2.4i, it’ll be a 24i junior or Greenstar. Also I forgot to mention, being it’s the final connection to the boiler, it will require a gas safe registered engineer.
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If I remember correctly these are the valves
WORCESTER 24i & 28i 18-22mm ISOLATING VALVE 87161424100 | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for WORCESTER 24i & 28i 18-22mm ISOLATING VALVE 87161424100 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
www.ebay.co.uk
Thanks for the reply. As it's only a small leak from the thread of the isolation valve, is there any thoughts as to what I could use to try and seal the weep?
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Aquarius
Nothing I’m aware of, sorry.
Ok, cheers anyway.
Not wanting to argue the toss, just interested to know what the logic is behind this rule? I'm thinking a valve connected to the boiler and a valve connected two foot down the same pipe run are not materially different.
A
Aquarius
I don’t actually know, it’s just what’s quoted somewhere in regs. Personally I don’t see any difference myself either. I remember when I 1st heard about the ruling, I rang gas safe as I wanted to renew a cylinder and they said that the pipes are considered the final connection to the boiler so I couldn’t do it as I wasn’t registered at the time, even he didn't know.
Sorry I haven't managed to get back on here for a while but I managed to sort the leak without replacing any parts by adding "Flowmasta central heating leak sealer " from screwfix ,along with inhibitor through the towel radiator. And hey presto! after 30 mins. it stopped and has been bone dry for about 1 month now.
Hi, thanks for that.
Gas Safe, without knowing the details, is here making no sense whatsoever of course, so it's good of you to bring it to our attention that Gas Safe is taking this line. I kind of get it that the valve in this thread is an integral part of the boiler, but interesting to know Gas Safe thinks this rule applies further down the line, so it will be interesting to see whether a plumber will ever actually be taken for court for fitting a system filter or deaerator. Or a cylinder! Or isolating the boiler for a powerflush, replacing a mid-position valve etc. etc.
The irony is that my level 2 City and Guilds included a college assessment in which we had a dummy combi boiler rig on the wall and we had to run the cold supply, hot supply, flow, and return to the appliances and radiator and connect to this boiler.
EDIT I have now written to Gas Safe to see if they will show me the legislation.
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UPDATE:
Gas Safe has replied. It has sent me a piece of legislation that (in short) states that if you carry out work on a boiler, that boiler then has to be tested for safety - a test that requires a qualified person. No mention of 'final connections' whatsoever and I fail to see the specific relevance to my question.
In this specific instance, I would imagine that the valve is deemed to be a part of the boiler so it is logical that its replacement would be a job for an RGI (though the OP has got around that issue by using internal leak-sealer: clever!)
I have replied with some examples in order to work out what kind of final connection might constitute work on a boiler in the opinion of Gas Safe. I will provide a further update in due course.
Gas Safe has replied. It has sent me a piece of legislation that (in short) states that if you carry out work on a boiler, that boiler then has to be tested for safety - a test that requires a qualified person. No mention of 'final connections' whatsoever and I fail to see the specific relevance to my question.
In this specific instance, I would imagine that the valve is deemed to be a part of the boiler so it is logical that its replacement would be a job for an RGI (though the OP has got around that issue by using internal leak-sealer: clever!)
I have replied with some examples in order to work out what kind of final connection might constitute work on a boiler in the opinion of Gas Safe. I will provide a further update in due course.
Direct quotation from Gas Safe's reply. The highlighting was not added by myself, so presumably is the GS employee's:
The gas boiler is regarded as a gas appliance in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 (GSIUR) and in regulation 26(9) it states,
The 26(9) checks can only be undertaken by a qualified gas engineer.
The manufacturers instruction may also state that a qualified gas engineer must install their appliance.
I'm not sure this helps us really, which is why I have replied requesting details of what they consider gas work to be in relation to flow and return connections and giving them 3 examples which they might like to comment on.
UPDATE. Woo hoo!
Well, I have an answer. Firstly my three scenarios (in black) and the GS Technical Support Officer's reply (in red):
If I give three hypothetical examples, this may make it easier to understand at what point you consider that 'final connection' to constitute work on a gas appliance:
EXAMPLE 1: A customer asks me to fit a Spirotrap filter to the primary return of a system boiler. The boiler incorporates a compression fitting allowing connection to the 22mm copper tube that forms the primary return. I do not disturb the incorporated compression fitting, but cut the 22mm copper tube 2m from the boiler, install the filter, and refill the system. Am I am performing work on a gas appliance? NO
EXAMPLE 2: A customer asks me to fit a Spirotrap filter to the primary return of a system boiler. The boiler incorporates a compression fitting allowing connection to the 22mm copper tube that forms the primary return. Unlike in example 1, this time I disconnect at the incorporated compression fitting and replace a short section of the 22mm copper tube in order to fit the filter more neatly. Am I am performing work on a gas appliance? Yes if you disconnect/connect the fitting to the appliance.
EXAMPLE 3: A customer asks me to fit a Spirotrap filter to the primary return of a system boiler. The boiler does not incorporate a compression fitting. Instead, this boiler incorporates a short section of 22mm copper tube onto which the original installer has chosen use a compression coupling to connect the 22mm copper tube that forms the primary return. I disconnect at the external compression fitting and replace a short section of the 22mm copper tube in order to fit the filter more neatly. Am I am performing work on a gas appliance? Not if it is not the connection on to the appliance.
The way I read it, then, is that once the tube has left the boiler, you may do what you like with it, but that 'the final connection' clause applied when a part of what you are connecting to is an integral part of the boiler. I'm not sure the Officer quite understood my 3rd example in which I must confess I was really thinking about the Baxi Main HE boilers which are, of course, heat only. These boilers do not incorporate a compression fitting and the installer has to supply his own. I think what he is getting at, however, is that if the 22mm pipework was not a part of the boiler, then connecting to it is not a 'final connection' (in the case of the Main HE, the pipework is a part of the boiler, so the compression joint here would be the final connection).
I find this surprising, as Gas Safe used to claim (and the page is still up on the internet) that you could even replace the circulating pump inside a system boiler without being gas qualified. It may be the above information is out of date, hence I attach a copy in case the original page is later removed from the internet. This forum does not allow a link to be attached.
The question of where this 'final connection' concept comes from has also been answered. It turns out it is actually an interpretation by the Health and Safety Executive. I would attach more information here, but my e-mail server has just broken down, so now you'll all have to wait for that part.
Well, I have an answer. Firstly my three scenarios (in black) and the GS Technical Support Officer's reply (in red):
If I give three hypothetical examples, this may make it easier to understand at what point you consider that 'final connection' to constitute work on a gas appliance:
EXAMPLE 1: A customer asks me to fit a Spirotrap filter to the primary return of a system boiler. The boiler incorporates a compression fitting allowing connection to the 22mm copper tube that forms the primary return. I do not disturb the incorporated compression fitting, but cut the 22mm copper tube 2m from the boiler, install the filter, and refill the system. Am I am performing work on a gas appliance? NO
EXAMPLE 2: A customer asks me to fit a Spirotrap filter to the primary return of a system boiler. The boiler incorporates a compression fitting allowing connection to the 22mm copper tube that forms the primary return. Unlike in example 1, this time I disconnect at the incorporated compression fitting and replace a short section of the 22mm copper tube in order to fit the filter more neatly. Am I am performing work on a gas appliance? Yes if you disconnect/connect the fitting to the appliance.
EXAMPLE 3: A customer asks me to fit a Spirotrap filter to the primary return of a system boiler. The boiler does not incorporate a compression fitting. Instead, this boiler incorporates a short section of 22mm copper tube onto which the original installer has chosen use a compression coupling to connect the 22mm copper tube that forms the primary return. I disconnect at the external compression fitting and replace a short section of the 22mm copper tube in order to fit the filter more neatly. Am I am performing work on a gas appliance? Not if it is not the connection on to the appliance.
The way I read it, then, is that once the tube has left the boiler, you may do what you like with it, but that 'the final connection' clause applied when a part of what you are connecting to is an integral part of the boiler. I'm not sure the Officer quite understood my 3rd example in which I must confess I was really thinking about the Baxi Main HE boilers which are, of course, heat only. These boilers do not incorporate a compression fitting and the installer has to supply his own. I think what he is getting at, however, is that if the 22mm pipework was not a part of the boiler, then connecting to it is not a 'final connection' (in the case of the Main HE, the pipework is a part of the boiler, so the compression joint here would be the final connection).
I find this surprising, as Gas Safe used to claim (and the page is still up on the internet) that you could even replace the circulating pump inside a system boiler without being gas qualified. It may be the above information is out of date, hence I attach a copy in case the original page is later removed from the internet. This forum does not allow a link to be attached.
The question of where this 'final connection' concept comes from has also been answered. It turns out it is actually an interpretation by the Health and Safety Executive. I would attach more information here, but my e-mail server has just broken down, so now you'll all have to wait for that part.
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Okay, Yahoo has awoken. I've been sent Technical Bulletin 014, which I attach.
I've also managed to find an updated version of the document I previously posted (which I found directly by using the search bar on the Gas Safe website) that post-dates the Technical Bulletin 014. I also attach this. Please note that the older version of this document is actually directly referred to by Technical Document 014!
So here we have it. As I understand it, I can legally remove the casing from a system boiler (depending on the nature of the casing: functional/decorative) to free off or replace a seized circulation pump, but if I want to fit a filter on the return, I must not disturb the compression joint that forms the final connection to the boiler as that is installation work.
I'd love to know if anyone can explain to me what I am missing, as I feel I must be missing something.
I've also managed to find an updated version of the document I previously posted (which I found directly by using the search bar on the Gas Safe website) that post-dates the Technical Bulletin 014. I also attach this. Please note that the older version of this document is actually directly referred to by Technical Document 014!
So here we have it. As I understand it, I can legally remove the casing from a system boiler (depending on the nature of the casing: functional/decorative) to free off or replace a seized circulation pump, but if I want to fit a filter on the return, I must not disturb the compression joint that forms the final connection to the boiler as that is installation work.
I'd love to know if anyone can explain to me what I am missing, as I feel I must be missing something.
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Insurance cover?
Interesting point. Would depend on the Ts and Cs.
However, I'm not aware that insurance is a legal requirement for plumbing work. Assuming it is not required, how does this affect the question of prosecution under the gas regulations? Bear in mind the question of freeing off a stuck pump could very well apply to someone who is just doing a bit of DIY (like the OP of this thread who won't, of course, be insured either way) who, if my understanding of the situation and the 2.4i/Junior is correct, would be allowed to remove the cabinet (but not the inner case) from the boiler and free off or replace the pump, but not replace that isolation leaking valve.
If that's the law, I accept it, but would comment it does not really make sense.
Also for consideration, this from hse :
Source:
www.hse.gov.uk
Can I use a plumber to install the appliance and then have the gas work fitted by a Gas Safe registered engineer?
A non-registered person may carry out 'wet work', ie install water pipes and radiators for a heating system, but any work on the gas boiler itself and the final connection of the water pipework to the boiler, must be done by a Gas Safe registered engineer.Source:
Gas safety check - who can do it? - HSE
Landlords, responsibility, gas, pipework, flues, appliances, gas appliances, gas safety check, record, records, maintenance, gas safety, HSE, health and safety, gas fitter
Yes. The same wording as in Technical Bulletin 014.Also for consideration, this from hse :
Can I use a plumber to install the appliance and then have the gas work fitted by a Gas Safe registered engineer?
A non-registered person may carry out 'wet work', ie install water pipes and radiators for a heating system, but any work on the gas boiler itself and the final connection of the water pipework to the boiler, must be done by a Gas Safe registered engineer.
Source:
Gas safety check - who can do it? - HSE
Landlords, responsibility, gas, pipework, flues, appliances, gas appliances, gas safety check, record, records, maintenance, gas safety, HSE, health and safety, gas fitter
I'm wondering now whether the actual situation might not be the following: HSE couldn't care less if you disconnect at the internal compression joint or cut the pipe 2" further along. What they are rightly trying to avoid is unqualified illegal boiler installs/relocations in which plumbers claim to have merely replumbed the flows and returns, or plumbers fitting boilers to the wall and creating situations in which RGIs are encouraged to sign off a boiler that they have only installed the gas supply to. So, to try to ensure people respect the spirit of the law and don't try to find loopholes to try to cover up illegal work, the HSE makes a rule that the final connections have to be made by RGIs.
Does this seem plausible?
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