Leaking radiator valves

[zzag]

Hi,

I recently had my old radiators replaced with new ones - Quinn Compact. To accommodate old single-pipe system plumber had used special Giacomini valves and if I understood correctly - pressed fittings used on the joints were 16x12. The heating pipes are made from soft copper and are buried in concrete. The whole setup is about 30 years old.

Now, after installation we have several pipe-valve connections leaking (pls see new-rads.jpg). To remedy this my plumber suggests to introduce compressed joint between soft floor pipe and a valve (where small run of rigid copper pipe is added between joint and a valve – pls see compressed-joint.jpg). However, doing so typically means:

a) rising the rads; and
b) cutting part of the floor pipe

– both things I, ideally, would like to avoid.

Before we resort to adding compressed joints I wonder if anyone has any alternative suggestions that we can try given the above specifications.

Since this is not my area on expertise I can only speculate that perhaps difference in diameters - floor pipe diameter is around 15-15.2mm while valve’s pipe is 16mm – could be causing problems? There is also a chance the floor pipe is slightly deformed. Would, for example, using a ‘taller’ nut (18mm vs. 12 mm that comes with valves) and suitably sized new olive could offer some advantage? Also - why soft pipe would have better connection with intermediate joint than going straight into valve?

Thanks

 

[stevetheplumber]

Hi,

I recently had my old radiators replaced with new ones - Quinn Compact. To accommodate old single-pipe system plumber had used special Giacomini valves and if I understood correctly - pressed fittings used on the joints were 16x12. The heating pipes are made from soft copper and are buried in concrete. The whole setup is about 30 years old.

Now, after installation we have several pipe-valve connections leaking (pls see new-rads.jpg). To remedy this my plumber suggests to introduce compressed joint between soft floor pipe and a valve (where small run of rigid copper pipe is added between joint and a valve – pls see compressed-joint.jpg). However, doing so typically means:

a) rising the rads; and
b) cutting part of the floor pipe

– both things I, ideally, would like to avoid.

Before we resort to adding compressed joints I wonder if anyone has any alternative suggestions that we can try given the above specifications.

Since this is not my area on expertise I can only speculate that perhaps difference in diameters - floor pipe diameter is around 15-15.2mm while valve’s pipe is 16mm – could be causing problems? There is also a chance the floor pipe is slightly deformed. Would, for example, using a ‘taller’ nut (18mm vs. 12 mm that comes with valves) and suitably sized new olive could offer some advantage? Also - why soft pipe would have better connection with intermediate joint than going straight into valve?

Thanks

ive always found compression on to soft copper a bit hit and miss especially old stuff i would solder hard copper on look better as well if your not going below floor level
if those valves are the ones i think they are they have a brass ring and a rubber in stead of a olive and are always a bit of a nightmare

 

[zzag]

Thanks Steve. Indeed, compression could be a problem and valves do have brass ring and a rubber. The plumber tried using PTFE tape onto a pipe followed by ring, rubber and a nut. It has helped a bit but has not fully resolved an issue. I don't think soldering will be an option I can afford so I wonder if there is something else we can try first? For example, other make valves with more suitable joints that we can easily swap?

 

[Bernie2]

Soft copper is usually connected using manipulative type B couplers. They require a swage or forming tool. You can get or could get type B conversion couplers to standard copper. The ones shown seem to be standard compression.

 

[zzag]

Bernie, I looked up what manipulative type B couplers are. Found these: Securex Fittings - Alexander brown & Co, Glasgow. They appear to be similar to those used in my pic compression-joint.jpg (the one on the right). Is that correct? If so - does it mean I have little choice but to go with my plumber's suggestion and as result rise the rads?

Also attaching picture of my old rad and valve where joint worked without problem...

 

[Bernie2]

You could use a copper forming drift to get the soft copper back into shape and then use soldered fittings if you wanted.

But looking at the picture, it looks possible, manipulative type B back nuts and cones have been used to connect to the valve.

 

[zzag]

Thanks Bernie. So no point trying taller nuts or different make valves?

 

[stevetheplumber]

Thanks Steve. Indeed, compression could be a problem and valves do have brass ring and a rubber. The plumber tried using PTFE tape onto a pipe followed by ring, rubber and a nut. It has helped a bit but has not fully resolved an issue. I don't think soldering will be an option I can afford so I wonder if there is something else we can try first? For example, other make valves with more suitable joints that we can easily swap?

solder ring couplings are a third the price of compresion end feed even cheaper
those rubber rings are always dodgy if the pipe doesnt enter straight

 

[zzag]

Steve, every plumber I spoke too indicated that soldering with be the biggest and most expensive option - from having to drain and dry floor pipes fully to doing & testing actual soldering. Because previous valves held for 30 years I was hoping I can get some new ones that would work just as well without additional effort...

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! zzag.

If I was going to do it without soldering.

First off I would need to connect soft copper to standard copper. So one side of the fitting would have to be type B a bit like a Securex S220 pillar tap adapter and the other side a standard type A table x copper fitting. The adapter I am thinking about was at one time fairly common as lots of houses had soft copper water mains and inside you changed from soft copper to standard copper at the stop tap. So one side of the stop tap was for type B and the other for type A. All you did was use a standard Conex stop tap and change the nut and ring/olive/cone on one end to fit type B.
I've looked in the Conex catalog but they don't seem to make them now. Although you can get inserts for soft copper when using compression fittings, I don't think they would suite your pipework though as the soft copper is probably harder by now. You may still be able to pick up an adapter or two somewhere though, ask at your local Plumbers merchant.

Then at the valve itself, I would inspect the threads and if BSP 1/2" would get a short Conex female iron to copper pillar tap adapter 303ST and put some washers in it, then tighten it on to the valve. That way I would by-pass any internal rubber rings and just have to make a straight forward copper to copper connection.

 

[stevetheplumber]

hi! Zzag.

If i was going to do it without soldering.

First off i would need to connect soft copper to standard copper. So one side of the fitting would have to be type b a bit like a securex s220 pillar tap adapter and the other side a standard type a table x copper fitting. The adapter i am thinking about was at one time fairly common as lots of houses had soft copper water mains and inside you changed from soft copper to standard copper at the stop tap. So one side of the stop tap was for type b and the other for type a. All you did was use a standard conex stop tap and change the nut and ring/olive/cone on one end to fit type b.
I've looked in the conex catalog but they don't seem to make them now. Although you can get inserts for soft copper when using compression fittings, i don't think they would suite your pipework though as the soft copper is probably harder by now. You may still be able to pick up an adapter or two somewhere though, ask at your local plumbers merchant.

Then at the valve itself, i would inspect the threads and if bsp 1/2" would get a short conex female iron to copper pillar tap adapter 303st and put some washers in it, then tighten it on to the valve. That way i would by-pass any internal rubber rings and just have to make a straight forward copper to copper connection.

thats going to look real prety

 

[zzag]

Thanks Bernie, for taking time to look into my problem. I shall pass this information to my plumber and hopefully we can solve the problem. I agree soldering would be much neater solution but I don't think it is an option at the moment.