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J

jd2010

Hi people, I am currently doing my Level 2 technical certificate and unfortunately lost my work placement due to the company going bust at the start of the year, meaning I also lost my on site assessment arrangements and apprenticeship. I have been looking everywhere for a work placement and asked everyone if I can work for free etc etc just to get it done but as of yet no luck. I asked my college tutor the other day the best way to go about things so I can get it done asap. He's response was to go self employed on my own and just start doing the odd few jobs like ball valves and toilet cisterns for family members and friends etc. That way I can be assessed whilst doing small jobs in peoples houses I know. I have had 9 months on site experience, I feel i'm capable in doing most small jobs, as well as soldering, bending and hanging rads etc. I just wanted to know if anyone's ever done this and been able to complete there portfolio. Obviously ill be paying my own liability insurance which i'm willing to do but I don't want to waste my time and money, if people who are qualified don't believe it works as easy as that. Sometimes i'm sure my college tutor is from another planet with some of the stuff I have learnt at college. Just wanted a bit of advice really and any help would be appreciated. Oh and of course if you have any work in the London or Essex area, i'm obviously available night or day :)

Cheer for reading, Jason
 
Hi Jason. What your tutor says is not a bad idea as the current work situation is not great when looking for someone to take you on. I am an onsite assessor working in the south west and I have had lots of my lads doing the same thing and it has worked for them. Which ever way you go I wish you luck in it but what ever you do don't give up on your course, it will be worth it in the end. Regards, Phil
 
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Hi Jason. What your tutor says is not a bad idea as the current work situation is not great when looking for someone to take you on. I am an onsite assessor working in the south west and I have had lots of my lads doing the same thing and it has worked for them. Which ever way you go I wish you luck in it but what ever you do don't give up on your course, it will be worth it in the end. Regards, Phil

Its tough out there for all of us, however I am concerned at some of the advice on this forum.

Firstly, going self employed requires more than liablity insurances, which will cost around £400 minimum and may be much higher for 'at risk' cohorts - it takes a more than a few small jobs to make this back. Then add the accountant, and tax return - £500 - 1k. Van, tools, loans, training, advertising - its clear to see that the government encourages enterprise and there will be many who give us examples of their success...but what of those that have set up, gone into debt and really struggled to make a living.

In addition there are insurance companies like AA, homeserve etc that are now mopping up most of the smaller jobs. In future plumbers will have to pay to be on such registers to get work at all.

I ask the college lecturer how he can possibly assess someone for competence on a job, if they do not have an on-site recorder/supervisor and what are the conditions for your centre in terms of validity of assessment - would this not be putting the public at risk? or putting the trainee at risk of exposure to astbestos or other hazards that may have not been fully learned in his 9 months.

The whole point of apprenticeship is to learn from others who know what they are doing in context, it relates to 'work process knowledge' that can't be taught or learned in college.

With respect to the two posters, this is not a dig at you guys, you are just trying to carve out a living - but do you not see the bigger picture - this is a training industry...but for what? A job that does not cover the overheads, or even puts the trainee in debt or in danger?

:film:
 
I have to agree with what you are saying but if this lad is in the situation of giving up on the course or going self employed then he may want to look into the bigger picture of it and of course be aware of ALL the pit falls. It is not essential for anyone to have a workplace recorder/supervisor as it any evidence gathered and decision on competance lies with the Assessor. I for one would want to delv deeper into the UPK of any learner I wasn't totally happy with.
 
Thanks for all the quick responses, I understand exactly what everyone is saying on the matter. I also thought I could be more of a risk doing a small job like you say, I have small amount of experience with asbestos and hazardous situations. I have the dilemma, do I sit around and keep trying the hundreds of companies and just hope things get better or basically do I blag it and teach myself because like you say, what is taught in college and on site is completely different, and for my college to say they are training me to an adequate standard to work on site or in peoples houses I think is crap to be honest. I have worked on site and to think people believe once they walk out of college they will be able to figure any plumbing situation out is just beyond me. I have tried everything to get onto a small or large company, and they just don't want to know. I know everyone has it hard at the moment, but I feel for big companies not to even bother investing in the future is plain ignorance. Just seems to me a lot of talent is going to be wasted, and sometimes I do feel I may as well just give up and work in McDonald's because i'm never going to get the chance to do something I enjoy. Sorry to rant on about it but i'm starting to get stressed out with the government I suppose. Cheers anyways guys.
 
I have to agree with what you are saying but if this lad is in the situation of giving up on the course or going self employed then he may want to look into the bigger picture of it and of course be aware of ALL the pit falls. It is not essential for anyone to have a workplace recorder/supervisor as it any evidence gathered and decision on competance lies with the Assessor. I for one would want to delv deeper into the UPK of any learner I wasn't totally happy with.

So a candidate can go self employed and present evidence that is contained in the NVQ on-site portfolio - however I thought the NVQ site portfolio was mainly health and safety, with an assessment like a bathroom with one rad that covers the NVQ assessment criteria (a minimum of 1.5m of pipework). I would be interested to know from the site-assessor if he thinks this is adequate and whether 'hand on heart' he believes this is a real, valid, reliable measure of someone's competence?

If this is the case, and no employer is required, then the plumbing industry can be supplied, with no restriction with as many who want to join. This is really great for new comers because they can start as novices and charge the same rates as time-served operatives. But how will said new-comers feel five years down the line, when they see their work start to dry up because of the same system that allowed them to start. More and More entering means less wages usually with any occupation.

There is a hidden sales agenda here, which does not go unnoticed:

ASA Adjudication on New Career Skills Ltd - Advertising Standards Authority

As for setting up and being a plumber, I think its going to be really hard work for new-comers - my generation had it easy, and I feel for those starting out. These yougsters are not getting the correct information from colleges, careers or industry - so who is telling the truth and what is going on exactly - it seems to me from the link above that there are no conclusive data on entry to industry - this is rather convenient.
 
Unless ALL the criteria in the Workplace Portfolio is met to a competant standard then no self respecting Assessor should be signing it off. I did say that if the learner was self employed then I would delv into their UPK to find out how far their knowledge of what they are doing is satifactory for them to be deemed competant. I would also be observing them on a lot more than 1.5m pipework and one installation. This does not even go close to meeting the requirements!

The old NVQ portfolio (6089) requires at least 2 installations of 2 different system types from 4 on offer. The New 'NVQ' (6189) requires 3 from 5 so you can see there is a lot of work to be assessed on and it is the Assessors job to observe enough to be satisfied that the learner can be signed off as competant. If that means being onsite for half a day or even all day to observe enough of the work being done then so be it.

Of course there is no substitute for good experienced training but until we have registered plumbers this is the only way the industry can at least have some control on the level of ability out there.

As we all know anyone can get themselves a kit of tools and go out there and do plumbing, there in no legislation in place to stop them. However, if someone goes to college and comes away with at least the underpinning knowledge they are at least informed on what they should be doing and if they have the work to be assessed on for the NVQ, employed or self employed, then they are going down the right road, it is down to the integrity of the Assessor after that.
 
As we all know anyone can get themselves a kit of tools and go out there and do plumbing, there in no legislation in place to stop them. However, if someone goes to college and comes away with at least the underpinning knowledge they are at least informed on what they should be doing and if they have the work to be assessed on for the NVQ, employed or self employed, then they are going down the right road, it is down to the integrity of the Assessor after that.

Phil, thanks for coming back on this one. Its interesting that the new QCF is 3 out of 5 assessments, but is three visits enough to assess competence? If we make a comparison apprentices who work with firms might spend 4 years at level 2 and 3; so does 3 assessments equate to this...I don't think it does.

Hence apprentices who are with firms time-serving are being disenfranchised. As for the college system, its become a believable myth...you sound as though you believe this system to be fair, however your final statement quoted above infers that colleges will be able to supply labour without the need for employers.

I believe that FE colleges and staff work hard and have integrity, so this is not a dig at assessors or teachers - its just perhaps a point to reflect on.

The system of training, that is devoid of work place culture, important work process knowledge and reliant on institutional 'representational' knowledge (taught to test) is hardly an 'objective' measure of someone's capacity or competence. In addition you talk of 'underpinning knowledge' - I can't see how this can possibly be achieved without access to real work experience and onsite-mediation of learning - how can a novice possibly have underpinning knowledge of something they have not yet experienced in the real world? Do they remember everything they learned about this underpinning knowledge, and is the underpinning knowledge directly related to what they do at work and can it really be 'applied'. So your assertion that 'underpinning knowledge' can be easily plucked out of the memory, to be applied in a situation sometime in the future is a difficult one for me to believe. Many plumbers I have employed can't remember what they did at college the previous day!

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and what seems to be missing is the ability of those operatives trained to 'competent' standards to understand their own incompetence. Furthermore, I would argue these semi-trained operatives think they are competent, because they have been deemed as so, through a highly questionable process - formal qualifications, which are often outcome driven and taught to test (so college institutions can draw the their funding, and assessors and teachers can get their wages while the goverment are happy that national qualification targets are being met). But is this really a system for high quality 21st century skills that the government and sector skills councils keep harping about.

How would our 'competent' college trained graduates (without employers) stand up on the job for real, when compared with say a German installer that has met their competency levels required set up in business - this requires 5 years minimum work experience and equivalent qualifiction of master (level 4).

However, from your quote above, the most disturbing aspect is that the process of college and qualification legitimates or gives weight to the fact that new installers can now stand side by side with established firms and charge the same rates; sometimes only after a few months of training.

My question to you Phil, how do you see this going and do you think demand for plumbing courses will diminish or will they get more popular? Has the new QCF framework improved the situation, and made it more rigorous, or do you see gaps in this that undermine the notion and meaning of competence further?
 
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In reference to the new QCF qualification. It is a lot more than just 3 visits. To understand this fully would need a working knowledge of the 6189 units, which unfortunately is far too long winded to go into on this forum. I'm not saying you would not understand it but time and other things prohibit me from going into it here. Take my word for it there is a lot of work needed to be assessed for the learner to be signed off for the Level 2 NVQ (i.e. competent). However, I do agree that doing a two year college course and coming out with a qualification which is deemed to make them a qualified plumber is no where near the same as doing the old 4 or 5 year apprenticeship, but until someone comes up with a viable alternative this is what we are stuck with.

What grips me even more is that a learner can go to college for two years and get the NVQ Level 2 and then progress straight on with Level 3 for one year which gives them the right to call themselves a fully qualified plumber. I strongly do not agree with the system but it is all we have right now. I'm caught up in it the same as you and everyone else in the industry.

With the skill and expertise of the assessor he should be able to acertain whether the learner has the necessary skills to be deemed safe by digging into his underpinning knowledge. If, as you rightly say, they cannot answer some searching questions, I would be telling them that they are not ready for assessment and to go back and revisit their training. I do appreciate that all this does is delay them getting formal qualifications but like I said, what else have we got?

I have met many empolyers who do not have formal qualifications and do a really good job. They are aware of all the regulations and work within them but still send there apprentices to college to get the formal qualifications because they believe they should get that piece of paper.

The real answer is to regulate plumbers, as gas fitters and electricians are, along with making the formal qualifications longer and harder to achieve this would weed out the ones who will never make it as a plumber and stop any Tom, Dick or Harry setting themselves up as plumbers with little or no knowledge of the trade. On top of this the public in general need to be educated in who they allow through there door to work on their systems. I'm not saying this would be bullet proof but it would go a long way to helping ensure we get properly trained people working in the industry.

It is widley believed that those who go through the college system and do not have the knowledge or ability to cut it will be found wanting and will not make it in the trade. It is one of the reasons the qualification has changed so that traing providers cannot take anyone in, 'get them qualified' and justify their existance. The QCF NVQ is about providing formal training to those who are employed, or self employed, and traing to a need. Therefore if someone who is not actually working in the trade then they cannot get the qualification.

In answer to your final point/question. I don't believe this is the answer. I strongly believe that the way every one in education is judge is totally wrong. This goes right from primary education all the way up to universities. Anyone in education is judged on achievment levels. That is to say if a college has 10 learners at the start of a course (any course you care to name) then they have to get 10 learners qualifed for a 100% achievment rate. If 3 of those fail (not allowed) or drop out after a couple of months the achievment rate drops to 70 %, below the national bench mark, which is unacceptable to the powers that be and funding is affected. The only body that can do anything about this is the government. It's a system we all hate but we are stuck with it.

The QCF framework has plugged some of the holes and tightend things up but it will never replace the old indentured apprenticeship system over five years.

Sorry to have rambled on but I feel as strongly as you about this but what can we do?
 
Phil,

Thanks for your well reasoned reply to my questions. Your response is one of the few I have gathered that doesn't seek to be defensive, but seeks to problematise the current situation as less than satisfactory.

From my own position, I feel that on-site assessment and assessors are under-valued. It takes a great deal of skill and diplomacy to do this important job and its probably the most valid form of assessment (direct empirical observation where competence can be inferred through performance in reality).

Its early days for the QCF, but looking through strategic documents I kind of get the impression that assessment is going to go 'in house'. Have you heard of the consolidated assessment strategy? In this document (2010) summitskills claim to have developed an 'objective' way of assessing 'occupational competence' in a purpose made assessment environment. QCF is designed for both entrants to industry and formal apprentices, but I can't help thinking the former are getting more out of the deal.

With a new institutional arrangement for assessment, and its claim to 'objectivity' do you think the on-site assessment will be diminished in favour of convenient 'in house' approaches? Or do I have this wrong?

It just seems to me that licence to practice such as gas, has the power to confer competence in safety specific criteria (their claim) through ACS assessment centres - where work experience is judged by those at the centre as appropriate. Are plumbing qualifications following this remit?
 
As far as I am aware there are no plans to do away with the on-site assessments. It would be a very sad day for the industry if that were to happen although it would not surprise me. It would be a lot easier for training establishments to control the assessment process but I do feel that with the way the funding is organised, at present, then standards will drop.

In my opinion SummitSkills have a lot to answer for.

Do you mind me asking what role you have in life?
 
As far as I am aware there are no plans to do away with the on-site assessments. It would be a very sad day for the industry if that were to happen although it would not surprise me. It would be a lot easier for training establishments to control the assessment process but I do feel that with the way the funding is organised, at present, then standards will drop.

In my opinion SummitSkills have a lot to answer for.

Do you mind me asking what role you have in life?

on site assessments are a relevantly new idea (older ones were just visits not assessments). im still not convinced by them, for me i like the traditional way of the college doing the theory and basic skills in a controlled environment and the company doing the on site training, its worked for years! however with the introduction of 'placements' and self employed trying to get the nvq i think it is required. there are no plans to reduce them, if anything they want to place more emphasis on them and less on student port folios, it remains to be seen if this improves the system or not
 
The QCF framework has plugged some of the holes and tightend things up but it will never replace the old indentured apprenticeship system over five years.

Sorry to have rambled on but I feel as strongly as you about this but what can we do?

what gaps do you think the QCF has plugged?
 

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