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John Gallon

Hi, I have been asked to give my views on low pressures to hot and cold taps and showers in a large house with 6 showers spread round the house.
The mains pressure is low and so, except for the kitchen cold tap, the hot and cold is fed from two large storage tanks on the second floor with the boiler and cylinder on the ground floor.
A simple solution would look to be separate single end pumps fitted to the outlet of each tank. As the conventional position for a boost pump is after the cylinder I was not sure what the adverse effects (if any) of pumping the feed into the cylinder,

Thanks for any help, John
 
Hi John

If you were to fit a pump in the hot cylinder feed, would there not be a potential for the
pump to carry on pumping when a hot tap is turned off, which could result in the water being pumped out of the expansion,

(by the way the fact that you asked the question suggests to me that you already knew the answer),
 
Hi Bobpage, Thanks for your reply. This was just one of the concerns I had but they were concerns that is why I asked the question, I wanted facts,
Thanks, John
 
Well by asking the question, in all respect, you have shown that you are in no position to give your views or opinions in this case and it would be unfair to yourself and prospective customer to do so. I think you are a little over your head here
One of the biggest things is to know when to take a step back
By not knowing the 'adverse effect' of putting a pump before a cylinder you have shown your fundamental lack of knowledge of basic plumbing systems
Which is not a problem everyone has to learn but not by diving in on a job like this, it will end in tears
 
Hi. This could be achieved if the cylinder was unvented. However on a large system as described there may well be secondary circuits and other issues to be considered.
 
Puddle, I am not giving my views I was only asked for them but if you rather not answer my query thats ok. Thanks to the other contributers that did.
 
Also worth mentioning that the water board has to give a pressure at no less than 1 bar at the feed outlet to the tank.

1 foot of head gives 0.43 psi so a ground floor tap assuming you had 23 feet between the WHB outlet and the tank outlet should give you 10 psi of pressure which should be ample for an outlet, however if you had showers on the top floor with a tank just above you could potentially have only say 4 feet of head equaling 1.72 psi in which case shower booster sets could be installed to overcome this problem.

Not to undermime you or anyone else for that matter, but when you refer to low pressure you dont inadvertantly mean the volume of water coming out at each outlet? two of which are completely different but most building occupants get the two mixed up!
 
Err!

The local utility company does not guarantee any pressure except a minimum of about seven metres static head in the communication pipe to the premises.

Companies try to keep an eye on the pressure at about ten metres head at the outside stop tap, with a flow rate of nine litres per minute about enough to fill a 4.5 lite can in 30 seconds.

So the guaranteed pressure ain't much and depending on the frictional head of the cold mains system pipework, by the time it gets upstairs it can be pretty weak.

But seven metres head is enough to get it upstairs in most properties, just!
2.5 metres per lift = 5 metres add floor void between floor's .2 metre = 5.2 metres about another metre for rising off the main to the Ground floor level = 6.2 metres.

So you ain't got much head to design a crm system on.

Incidentally 7 metres is just over .5 bar and combis usually have a minimum requirement of .5 bar. If I had a shilling for every combi installed on a low pressure main I've seen I'd be loaded.

Its partly because of low pressure in the mains, that some areas use storage cisterns.

Its also why you try to make sure your pipework have as low a frictional head loss as you can. Throw that bag of elbows away and use your bending machine if you can. Incidentally I don't know whether you can still get them or not, but the likes of Yorkshire once made and sold bends as well as elbows. They where much slower and obviously must have cut down the frictional head.

Fortunately most main water supplies are well above 7 metres static. If your at the bottom of a hill your pressure is probably higher as they have got to reach those at the top of the hill. It all depends of course on the mains hydraulic line.
Water companies don't like high pressures either, by keeping it as low as possible but still providing the minimum pressure, they reduce the water lost through leaks.

You can check all this out with OFWAT if you like. :)

Err!

I wonder if you could use a flow switch with the pump into the cylinder cold feed, this would turn it on only when water was being drawn and if set up right, may not be on long enough to pump out the vent? It depends of course how high the highest part of the vent is over the water level in the tanks. And if the resistance in the pipework to the tap is less than that to the vent. Mind you, the hot water in the cylinder usually expands a bit back up the cold feed into the storage tank and with a pump and flow switch in the system it may not be able too, so it would vent over instead.

You also don't mention how the water is heated, assuming say a back boiler and direct primaries. The boiler is fed directly from the hot water cylinder and the cylinder from the storage cistern and you would be blocking the boiler cold feed if you put a pump on it, a great big NO! NO!

I bet somebody comes on with an easy answer :)
 
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nice one bernie!

shaun xx
 
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