need a new shower but my hot/cold pipes are reversed!

[harrygee]

Hi All
I need some advice as to a replacement power shower and there are a few problems
I have posted a photo showing the old unit ( a ShowerForce 2000 ); it has supply pipes which run down from the roof and into the left side of the unit as shown

The big problem is that the hot and cold are reversed ie the hot is on the right and cold on the left
I have heard that it is possible to get a reversed cartridge? that can be fitted to a shower unit to allow for this

So can someone tell me if there is a make of UK power shower that
a/ allows for supply into the left side and
b/ can be modified to allow for the reversed hot/cold pipes?

I want to avoid the hassle of having to get the pipes plumbed the correct way round and would like to minimise any damage to the tiled wall by using the existing pipework

Any advice would be very welcome
thanks

 

[Basher]

You can get 'un-pumped' bar showers with reversed (or at least convertible) connections by swapping the cartridge, but I'm not aware of a power shower that can do this. Maybe someone here knows of one?

But if you took your existing feeds further down, made a 'u-turn' in them and bottom fed a new power shower, that would be the right way round for a standard thermostatic shower, eg Mira Vigour.
Or just upward elbows on what you've got, and put the new shower unit higher up!

 

[harrygee]

Hi Basher - many thanks for your reply
the shower pump failed ages ago and we have used it as a mixer pump for ages!
The problem is that the seals in the mixer have failed and the head leaks water
The Showerforce service kit is not available ; the easiest answer is to find new rubber seals as shown here

Does anyone know if these seals are available anywhere ?
If not , I guess the answer is a mixer bar shower that can be reversed ; can you suggest a website for me to look at?
I want to keep the feeds external to leave my tiling intact even if it does not look so tidy!
Funnily enough I looked at the Mira Vigour but never thought I could feed from below which would solve the problem of reversed feeds ; that was definately thinking outside the box Basher!
Maybe The Mira solution is best?

 

[Basher]

Try Googling!
Example: https://www.showerdoc.com/thermostatic-bar-mixer-chrome-reversed-inlets-sd-bvalve-1005?
Thats the valve only apparently.
I've seen mention of a Grohe Grotherm 1000 model valve available but I think it's pricey.
No doubt others available.
I get the impression you may have to buy a complete bar shower (of the standard type) and then buy the reversed valve to fit it!

Sorry run out of time!

 

[harrygee]

Try Googling!
Example: https://www.showerdoc.com/thermostatic-bar-mixer-chrome-reversed-inlets-sd-bvalve-1005?
Thats the valve only apparently.
I've seen mention of a Grohe Grotherm 1000 model valve available but I think it's pricey.
No doubt others available.
I get the impression you may have to buy a complete bar shower (of the standard type) and then buy the reversed valve to fit it!

Sorry run out of time!

Hi
Thanks again for the help ; I am going to post a thread re. the seals to see if anyone can supply them
If not , then the bar mixer will be the way to go but I see it is not going to be cheap!
cheers!

 

[Basher]

Thanks again for the help ; I am going to post a thread re. the seals to see if anyone can supply them

I wouldn't be frightened of trying to improve the seals you have.
Do you know if they are just 'washers' or do they have a more '3D' shape with a further built up section or 'tube'?
It would be worth trying to gently remove one to see the shape and size, but if it's gone hard and would break, stop, and try the suggestion at the end below.

You can buy rubber sheet of different thicknesses. Or buy washer kits of different diameters and different thicknesses.
If you are a bit handy, and happen to have vernier calipers, you could accurately measure the dimensions of what you have (making allowances for any deformation that's happened to the old ones) and see if you can buy or make something of similar size. Cutting rubber sheet with a craft knife is straightforward, or punching it - if necessary with any hard thin walled tube of the right size.

If the failure to seal is purely due to your old seals hardening/shrinking in thickness, try making or buying two washers, lightly silicone them to the existing, and put the whole thing back together before the silicone sets, then leave it to set before turning water on.
(same size outer diameter, roughly similar or bigger size inner diameter, and say 1mm to 2mm thick (trial & error?)

It might give you a few more years use!

 

[harrygee]

I wouldn't be frightened of trying to improve the seals you have.
Do you know if they are just 'washers' or do they have a more '3D' shape with a further built up section or 'tube'?
It would be worth trying to gently remove one to see the shape and size, but if it's gone hard and would break, stop, and try the suggestion at the end below.

You can buy rubber sheet of different thicknesses. Or buy washer kits of different diameters and different thicknesses.
If you are a bit handy, and happen to have vernier calipers, you could accurately measure the dimensions of what you have (making allowances for any deformation that's happened to the old ones) and see if you can buy or make something of similar size. Cutting rubber sheet with a craft knife is straightforward, or punching it - if necessary with any hard thin walled tube of the right size.

If the failure to seal is purely due to your old seals hardening/shrinking in thickness, try making or buying two washers, lightly silicone them to the existing, and put the whole thing back together before the silicone sets, then leave it to set before turning water on.
(same size outer diameter, roughly similar or bigger size inner diameter, and say 1mm to 2mm thick (trial & error?)

It might give you a few more years use!

Hi
Yet again great ideas!
Here's what I've done so far
When the shower started leaking I tried to buy the repair kit but not available
So I used epoxy to stick a PTFE disc to the rotating control knob surface which bears against the seals, cutting to size , and this worked for sev years
Recently it started to leak more so I took it apart and I tried another PTFE disc
This did not work very well so I tried instead fixing a piece of thin EPDM rubber to the control knob surface
which bears against the seals
As I speak it has reduced the leak a lot but maybe will not last very long?
I just want to continue using the shower as is because I dont want the hassle of taking the unit off the wall
as it works just fine under normal hot/cold pressure
The existing seals are worn ; I did try to remove one but bottled out in case I damaged it!
So fixing a washer on top of the old ones is a good idea ; I think I would use epoxy to join them together
as there is a fair bit of force involved when you press the control knob up against them and then when you swist it on and off
At the moment , with the EPDM sheet in place , there is a lot of friction to move the knob but the leak seems to be much reduced
I guess I'll see how things go but putting a washer on top of the old ones to improve the seal is a good idea; the biggest question is whether the epoxy would hold them in place
cheers

 

[Basher]

Sorry but I hadn't realised the thing pressing against those seals was a moving component!
That means maybe rethinking the surface of the mating material, not 'rubber' but something with a low friction surface.
Maybe a combination of some thin rubber on top of existing seals with a thin ptfe on top to mate with the control knob surface (is that nylon?) as a sandwich.
Adhesive needs to be considered as you say - not sure Araldite is ideal - my limited experience with silicone is on clean surfaces it's pretty robust.
Good luck!

 

[harrygee]

Sorry but I hadn't realised the thing pressing against those seals was a moving component!
That means maybe rethinking the surface of the mating material, not 'rubber' but something with a low friction surface.
Maybe a combination of some thin rubber on top of existing seals with a thin ptfe on top to mate with the control knob surface (is that nylon?) as a sandwich.
Adhesive needs to be considered as you say - not sure Araldite is ideal - my limited experience with silicone is on clean surfaces it's pretty robust.
Good luck!

Hello again
this shows the situation

Sorry but I hadn't realised the thing pressing against those seals was a moving component!
That means maybe rethinking the surface of the mating material, not 'rubber' but something with a low friction surface.
Maybe a combination of some thin rubber on top of existing seals with a thin ptfe on top to mate with the control knob surface (is that nylon?) as a sandwich.
Adhesive needs to be considered as you say - not sure Araldite is ideal - my limited experience with silicone is on clean surfaces it's pretty robust.
Good luck!

Hi
this repair kit shows what its like

the blue control knob is a flat plastic surface which bears on the rubber seals under pressure from 5 fixing screws around the housing
currently have a thin layer of EPDM sheet stuck to the blue disk and then pushing on the mixer seals to take up the slack ; it is very tight and takes some effort to rotate it on BUT no leaks!
I realise the sheet may wear quickly so I am backing off the pressure via the 5 screws until just getting a leak then tighten slightly? will see how this goes
Would be great to know a washer supply outfit that could supply new seals ; I will search to see if I can find one , trouble is I dont know how to descibe the type of seal I want!
It does look like I need ones like the 2 upper ones above which slide over the inlet pipes but stand proud to give a seal

 

[Basher]

Do you think these are the seals in question (circled below)?
If so, that's a more complicated configuration than I had imagined! (and I am less optimistic about achieving a fix!)
Or if you don't think they are the ones, which are?

 

[harrygee]

Hi
no I think the seals I have are these

I'm not sure what the ones you highlight are for? maybe its for other shower models?
I have not found the ones you show when I open up the mixer chamber?
I am still backing off the screws to release pressure on the control wheel ; I think the Mira Vigour is the best bet eventually
can you use white plastic pipe to connect to such a shower?
It would look neater than copper if I have to connect to the bottom of a Mira?

 

[Basher]

Hi
no I think the seals I have are these

OK thanks. They look a bit more straightforward, basically a sort of short bit of tube!?
If you could establish o/d and i/d accurately there might be hope, but getting the right 'softness' might require more experimentation than it's worth!

I think the Mira Vigour is the best bet eventually

I'm inclined to agree - there could well be other suitable models available

can you use white plastic pipe to connect to such a shower?

Yes

It would look neater than copper if I have to connect to the bottom of a Mira?

Push-fit elbows are bulky and look it in comparison to copper, but yes you could do that.
A skilled plumber could probably bend single lengths of copper for H & C joined to your existing at the ceiling, or out of sight, so you could have no elbow fittings at all etc.
It's not a stud wall by any chance to hide the pipes? 🤪

 

[harrygee]

OK thanks. They look a bit more straightforward, basically a sort of short bit of tube!?
If you could establish o/d and i/d accurately there might be hope, but getting the right 'softness' might require more experimentation than it's worth!

I'm inclined to agree - there could well be other suitable models available

Yes

Push-fit elbows are bulky and look it in comparison to copper, but yes you could do that.
A skilled plumber could probably bend single lengths of copper for H & C joined to your existing at the ceiling, or out of sight, so you could have no elbow fittings at all etc.
It's not a stud wall by any chance to hide the pipes? 🤪

HI Basher
UPDATE ; I found a seal kit!! as shown above but without the knob and pressure plate
I did a last ditch search and found a site with 36 seal kits!
So I bought 2 and today fitted the new seals which are holding fine!
I do think the way the water seal relies on pressure between the rubber seal and the handle plate is poor ; however it has delayed having to fit
a new Mira as we are happy with the water pressure as is
I have another shower which I think has a ceramic seal? and have never had a problem with leaks
Just wanted you to know and thanks for the earlier suggestions