New Glow Worm system - Is it operating how it should be??

[hiltonsteve]

I had the following Glow Worm system installed a couple of weeks back -

Flexicom 24HX
Smart Wiring Centre
Climparo2
Magnaclean
New Honeywell 3 port valve

Wireless outdoor sensor (fitted last night)

I have balanced the system and everything is working fine, rads got hot and switch off when they should and it is producing hot water. I have called Glow Worm trying to get some answers but to be honest it seems to be like banging your head against a wall, so thought I would ask on here to try and make some sense of it.

Question 1 - When the climparo2 is programmed to give heating only then the boiler ticks over nice and quiet at the pre-set max value on the boiler (60 degrees) until the room temperature is met then it switchs off, no problem. But when the Climparo2 is programmed for DHW and heating the boiler is ticking over at 60 degrees and then every 3-5 mins gives a bit of a roar and boosts up to 80ish degrees for 5-10 secs then goes quiet, the process then starts again. This happens even if the cylinder stat is closed and not demanding any DHW, checked the inputs on the Smart Wiring Centre, cylinder switch is closed. Is this normal operation?

Question 2 - What effect does the wireless outdoor sensor have on the system? I can now see the outdoor temperature on the Climapro2 but it does not seem to effect how the boiler behaves. Does it actually do anything or have I just bought a £50 thermometer which saves me opening the back door to see how cold it is? Running the system before without this and now with it seems to be of no difference.

Question 3 - Are there any other parameter values that need setting on the boiler, everything changes as per the manual which was parameter D70 changed from 0 to 1, this tells the system that there is a 3 port mid position valve fitted and can give heating and DHW at the same time, apart from that nothing else altered, all as per the default values.

Read all the manuals from front to back and can not find anything to answer my questions, not the most informative of manuals when it comes to setting everything up!! Links for manuals are below apart from the wireless outdoor sensor which is not on the website, in this missing manual it lists the heating curves which I have set to 2.0 (4 bed 10 year old house), not sure what effect the heating curve has....

Flexicom manual - http://www.glow-worm.co.uk/stepone/data/downloads_sd/df/00/00/flexicom-hx-instn.pdf
Smart wiring centre manual - http://www.glow-worm.co.uk/stepone/...wiring-kit-installation_instructions_user.pdf
Climapro2 manual - http://www.glow-worm.co.uk/stepone/.../00/climapro-2-with-receiver-installation.pdf

Pleased with the system, house has never been so warm, just that it does not seem as smart as all the litrature and flashy website make it out to be, unless I am missing something....

 

[hiltonsteve]

I take it that due to the lack of response that most people are as just in the dark with these Glow Worm systems as me and after trying to talk to Glow Worm again they also are not really sure and just came up with the answer - we will arrange an engineers visit.

Been tinkering and came up with the following solutions / part solutions to my issues, this may help others that are experiencing similar problems.

Question 1 - Solution - I have now switched the boiler back to setting '0' on D70 which has switched it back to DHW priority, originally had this set to '1' to enable the mid position valve and enable DHW and heating at the same time. This now means my hot water heats up first then the central heating kicks in, not a major problem and now the boiler has stopped surging when trying to heat the water, also fully opened up the gate valve on the DHW return from the tank which has improved the flow and could also have something to do with it working better. Also put a new honeywell tank thermostat on as the 10 year old lifestyle one did seem a little tired. Not sure if it is a combination of all of these which has made an improvement or just one in particular.

Question 2 - Solution - Outdoor sensor is now controlling the water flow temperature as per the curves in the manual, initially this did not seem to be happening but after a couple of re-boots and leaving it for 24 hours it seems to be doing what it should. I am not sure if this has had any effect on the hot water now heating correctly.

Question 3 - Solution - All parameters on boiler reset to factory defaults, running as it was when it came out of the box.

I have now turned the Grundfos 15-50 pump up to setting 3 to get the water round the rads but may switch it back to 2 at the weekend and re-balance the rads, need to fit a couple of TRV's in the new extension as it is the warmest (too warm) part of the house, will do this today / tomorrow.

So, all seems to be working. Not convinced that this glow worm system is all its cracked up to be, seemed to be a lot of messing around to get it running something like right which is beacuse of a combination of not being provided with the information from the glow worm manuals in the first place and also the lack of help provided from them over the phone. Factor into this my lack of experience in setting up systems and learning by my mistakes then it does get you scratching your head for a few hours... Pretty close now though...

 

[MattWeth]

I have a Glow Worm combi and I agree about the documentation - not the best. However, I'm running mine with the old Honeywell programmer and mechanical stat which was used on our previous system boiler so don't 'benefit' from some of the features provided by the Glow Worm control system.

However it seems that you've improved the situation - hopefully your engineers visit should iron out the remaining niggles.

 

[diamondgas]

Hi HiltonSteve

Well with all 'new' technologies they take some filtering out into the world. Seen many management systems in my time and this sounds just like another version produced by glowworm. You'd need to know a glowworm installer who is familiar with this new fangled stuff to give you good sound advice IMO

However at first glance it sounds like you're talking about a 'y'plan system with fancy gadgets attached that control efficiency yeh?

Now you mentioned changing the control to give hot water priority ... That reminds me of ancient systems called 'w'plan that did exactly as you suggest but were superseded with the 'y'plan design. I noticed that the parameters involved with you're set-up included setting the desired hot water temp. I'd assume then that you'd need glowworms cylinder stat that goes with the management system. Maybe the lack of that has something to do with the surging you're on about as the stat you mentioned fitting isn't an intelligent one that will inform the controller of the temp of the hot water is it?

You also mention opening the valve fully on the cylinder return yeh? Not a good idea as it's a balancing valve for the whole of the system. Not that that'll bother right now as you have the controller on H/W priority.

I'm wondering why your installer didn't set up all the parameters for you and then explain how to use them, I'd assume they had some experience with the set up etc ...

Anyhow, picking out some of the things you've written I'd be concerned about the adjustment you've made to the hot water balancing valve and there's a niggle in my head about the cylinder stat and its compatability with the controler.... hmmmm!

There are guys who get on here much more up on the intelligent systems than myself i must admit... I'm trying to remember who they are, maybe you'd be better off PM-ing them? If someone could kindly advise

 

[diamondgas]

Just a note .... what i said about cylinder stat is not correct and there isn't any special stat required ... Just checked out the installation instructions for the intelegent wiring .... How then can you set the hot water temperature unless the controler interprets flow and return temps on the boiler to calculate cylinder temp???

 

[hiltonsteve]

Just a note .... what i said about cylinder stat is not correct and there isn't any special stat required ... Just checked out the installation instructions for the intelegent wiring .... How then can you set the hot water temperature unless the controler interprets flow and return temps on the boiler to calculate cylinder temp???

This is one of my questions also..... why on the climapro2 does it have a 'max hot water setting temperature adjustment' in the DHW menu when the hot water is controlled by the cylinder stat which is just an on off switch?? Maybe it is there if you use one of their heat pumps but to be honest I am not sure as it does not seem to do anything when you adjust it.

As for the installer setting it up, no chance.... Mistake I made was to get a local gas safe guy round who installed and plumbed the boiler, old school guy who was more baffled by this new fangled heating technology than me! He got the boiler working, did his tests, signed it off and went leaving me to the electrical side. Wiring it is pretty straightforward to be honest compared to wiring conventional timers that I have wired before, just the getting to understand how it works that took a bit of sorting.

As for opening the gate valve fully on the DHW water return, my thoughts were if the valve is either sending the water to the rads OR to the cylinder then is there any need to throttle it back by closing it as it will not be balancing anything (is this correct?), just restricting flow through the cylinder, thought I would get as much flow back to the boiler to try and stop it 'surging'.

I am still learning but feel as if I am getting somewhere now as it does seem to be performing as it should but completely open to advice and suggestions.

Thanks.

 

[diamondgas]

Yeh you're right regards leaving the valve fully open, no need to use for balancing if you're gonna heat up the hot water and heating separate! I hope your cylinder is a quick recovery one otherwise the house might get a little bit cold waiting for the cylinder to re-heat before bringing the heating back on... It really seems a strange thing to do to a valve that is designed to supply both heating and hot water though, if you don't mind me saying If it were in my own home I'd be using it as designed for both heating and hot water rather than either or ... Such a 21st century control system being used as a 1970's design principle 'w'plan doesn't sit comfortable with me, personally!

I'm sure you'll get it sorted though and hopefully the glowworm guy will be better experienced in helping answer your questions

 

[ajax]

Question 1 - When the climparo2 is programmed to give heating only then the boiler ticks over nice and quiet at the pre-set max value on the boiler (60 degrees) until the room temperature is met then it switchs off, no problem. But when the Climparo2 is programmed for DHW and heating the boiler is ticking over at 60 degrees and then every 3-5 mins gives a bit of a roar and boosts up to 80ish degrees for 5-10 secs then goes quiet, the process then starts again. This happens even if the cylinder stat is closed and not demanding any DHW, checked the inputs on the Smart Wiring Centre, cylinder switch is closed. Is this normal operation?

When the hot water heating kicks in the boiler automatically operates at full power and max water temp, (24kw at 80deg) regardless of your temperature setting and whether you have modulated the boiler output to less that 24kw. With a restricted flow you were almost certainly causing the boiler to go into anti-cycling mode. If the boiler can't reduce output enough to keep to the water temperature aimed at, then it cuts out for a time and tries again.

Question 2 - What effect does the wireless outdoor sensor have on the system? I can now see the outdoor temperature on the Climapro2 but it does not seem to effect how the boiler behaves. Does it actually do anything or have I just bought a £50 thermometer which saves me opening the back door to see how cold it is? Running the system before without this and now with it seems to be of no difference.

Using the climapro 2 and Smart wiring centre, the modulating mode of the climapro 2 can only be operated when the system is in hot water priority mode. The modulating mode of the climapro 2 adjusts the boiler operating depending on how close the room temp is to the required temp. Mine will often demand a temp of only say, 45deg from the boiler at times, and the flow return difference can be as low as 5deg. The makes for a more comfortable radiator temp and, more importantly perhaps, ensures the boiler operates with a return temp below 54deg most of the time which keeps it in the efficient condensing mode.

Using an outdoor sensor overrides the climapro2 modulating mode, but I suspect it also requires the sytem to be operating in DHW priority mode. I can't find where I read this now, but I know it is is hidden away somewhere.

So, what you have done was the right thing, and I think this is the explanation.

 

[hiltonsteve]

Ajax, thanks for your input, all starting to make sense now...

This afternoon I removed the old manual 15mm by-pass valve which was leaking slightly and put a 22mm honeywell auto by-pass in its place, someone recommended this should be in the system on another thread and after reading up and getting to understand the system I have to agree. I also juggled the pipes around whilst I was there to help improve flow into the 3 port valve, nothing too complicated just that the flow to the 3 port before was coming off the leg on the T and now I have piped it so that the bypass is coming off of the leg on the T and changed all the pipe to 22mm.

Is there any easy way to set the auto by-pass pressure? just wound it in about half way for now until I figure it out.

Over the last few days the boiler kept going into anti-cycling mode which was a pain in the arse, had to keep switching it off and on to get it to reset and fire up again. I am hoping that the bypass and new pipework will make a bit of difference but time will tell. Everything back up and running again now and the boiler is behaving itself at the moment, just ticking over nicely as I would expect it to and the rads are nice and warm.

I have also turned the grundfos pump down from speed setting 3 to 2, seemed to be creating air in the system as I had to bleed the rad nearest the pump every couple of days.

So, I now have the boiler on the default settings, nothing changed at all which means it is in DHW priority mode, it heats the cylinder up very quickly so I dont see this as a problem.

Fingers crossed at the moment, will see how it runs over the next few days and report back but everything at the minute seems to working.....