New to forum - ex plumber (with a question!)

[dejr]

Hi all,

I'm David, long time lurker of the forum so thought about time I joined . I did my training many years ago (not gas safe) worked for myself for a few years then ended up in a completely different career direction. I enjoyed the work though and what I picked up has come in handy many times since.

I am in the process of getting an extension designed and whilst I'll have a builder doing the bulk of the work I'm also hoping to get involved in a fair bit of it once the shell is complete.

I am just doing a plan for the plumbing at the moment and one thing I'd like to incorporate is a gas outlet by the patio for a future outdoor kitchen. The builder uses a gas safe engineer who will be moving the boiler to the new utility room etc, however I didn't think about this initially but would make sense to have him do this work at the same time, if it's possible.

I wanted to check the consensus on how it should be installed before I ask and commit to the work being done, hence the post!

The run would be from the utility room, through the new extension then a couple of meters to the patio. I reckon it's 10-11m in total.

Could it be terminated to a outlet which would allow for other appliances (such as a patio heater) to be connected along with a NG BBQ?

Although I can source a NG BBQ I can't seem to find much information UK specific, it's mainly US.

Any advice appreciated.

 

[Chalked]

There just isn’t the choice for not gas barbecues in the uk.
Same with patio heaters. So it’s much simpler and cheaper to get a butane, or propane one. Then just use a bottle.

 

[dejr]

Cheers Chalked, you're probably right though I've seen a few of the built-in units start to appear, like on the bbqworld site, but can't find out much in the way of what's required to get the supply out there.

Once I'd seen one of these setups with the bar, cooler, bbq etc I was hooked on the idea!

Maybe I'll just get a run of copper in place along the length of the extension whilst all the works are going on and leave it at that until I'm ready to build it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Not cheap

BBQ World Mobile Site

Also I would get a length of trac pipe installed if your thinking about it

 

[oz-plumber]

You're an ex-plumber, you know how plumbers do work on their own houses.

Tee into an existing gas line and run a pipe to where you want it.
Don't bother resizing the gas main for the extra load - if the BBQ's flame drops, just turn off the boiler - you will only use the BBQ in summer, so unless you have a combi this won't come into the equation.

PS - I would never buy a house that a Plumber lived in.
Short cut central - except my place - well over Plumbed.

 

[Harvest Fields]

I would upgrade the gas pipe if needed

Edit- I also wouldn’t buy an ex plumbers/gas engineer/builders house

 

[dejr]

Ha ha, yes I fully intend to over-plumb this place

Will go the trac pipe route Shaun, thanks.

I've got to start spec'ing the UFH, boiler, thermal store etc next. It's been a while so I'll probably be back for help / recommendations!...

 

[CHRISX]

You're an ex-plumber, you know how plumbers do work on their own houses.

Tee into an existing gas line and run a pipe to where you want it.
Don't bother resizing the gas main for the extra load - if the BBQ's flame drops, just turn off the boiler - you will only use the BBQ in summer, so unless you have a combi this won't come into the equation.

PS - I would never buy a house that a Plumber lived in.
Short cut central - except my place - well over Plumbed.

Hello oz-plumber and Harvest Fields,

What have You experienced in Homes previously owned or still lived in by Plumbers that makes you state to `never buy a House that a Plumber lived in` ?

Apart from the old adage that `a dripping tap will be left for weeks [or longer] in a Plumbers Home`, I have worked in a few Homes that were said to be previously owned by `Plumbers` but in most cases it was easy to see from the workmanship that those people might have been calling themselves `Plumbers` but they were NOT !

Of course even with some `qualified Plumbers` their standard of work can still be what We would regard as disgraceful something that I have seen often.

If someone was unlucky enough to buy a Home where one of those Plumbers had lived and done extensive work there obviously could be future problems but I cannot imagine that an experienced Plumber who works to a good standard of workmanship would do otherwise in their own Home ?

I have completely re-plumbed my Home from the Mains connection outside in the pavement [new incoming Main] - installed the Bathrooms and a separate downstairs W.C. - installed the Kitchen and Utility Room Sinks etc. and all of the Soil & Waste pipes plus some additional underground Drainage.

I have installed all of the Gas pipework including extending it in 28mm to an outside Meter when new Gas Supplies were installed in my Road / the local area and external Meters were specified and I installed the Heating system [in 1986] having replaced the Boiler and Radiators plus new TRV`s, Programmer and upgrading to a Programmable Room Thermostat a few years ago - I have serviced the Boilers personally and the system has the Fernox Corrosion Inhibitor [10 Litres] replaced every 5 years after a system cleanser has been used.

I have carried out all of those works just as professionally as I would have if working on the `Highest Class Property` - although I pride myself on installing to the highest standard of workmanship on every job irrespective of the `class of property`.

Surely all of our Members would also work to their normal standards when doing work in their own Homes ?

I would really like to read some of your experiences - is it possible that the `Plumbers` whose Homes you have worked in / seen poor workmanship were people who were just calling themselves `Plumbers` ?

CHRISX

 

[Ric2013]

My house:

I have a Viva FOV on my WC cistern I decided to fit because I refused to pay the premium demanded by Armitage Shanks for a replacement washer.

I fitted the Viva because I cannot get spares for it and refuse to fit an FOV to a customer's house when spares are unobtainable. So that's one way the house has suffered through being mine.

Parts of the plumbing in my house have been redone to a high standard (but re-using scrap copper pipe where possible), but since no one is paying me to replace the legacy work, it stays. I accept water hammer on unclipped pipes (fitted prior to my owning the house) when the neighbour turns her tap off, because I ain't ripping up the bathroom floor to clip them. Where it has been practical, of course I have made improvements, but in a customer's house it would be new pipe and redesign, not cobble around what's there when what is there is a bit suspect.

Also, the heating setup is very much a compromise that I live with, rather than something I would supply to a customer. But doing it properly is currently unaffordable, and I understand the system and can make it do what I want it to do because, unlike most customers, I understand my system well.

I could re-do the bathroom and make it really smart, but this makes no sense environmentally. What I have works, and if it breaks, I have a resident plumber who can make repairs, so why worry?

IF I stay in this house for the long term, then, yes, it will all be good work, but as it is, the plumbing is the least of my concerns and doing things piecemeal when I have no call-out charge to my own house, makes sense in a way that wouldn't make sense for non-plumbers.

Also, I'm surely not the only plumber that uses his own house for the kinds of experiments that I would not inflict on my customers?

 

[CHRISX]

My house:

I have a Viva FOV on my WC cistern I decided to fit because I refused to pay the premium demanded by Armitage Shanks for a replacement washer.

I fitted the Viva because I cannot get spares for it and refuse to fit an FOV to a customer's house when spares are unobtainable. So that's one way the house has suffered through being mine.

Parts of the plumbing in my house have been redone to a high standard (but re-using scrap copper pipe where possible), but since no one is paying me to replace the legacy work, it stays. I accept water hammer on unclipped pipes (fitted prior to my owning the house) when the neighbour turns her tap off, because I ain't ripping up the bathroom floor to clip them. Where it has been practical, of course I have made improvements, but in a customer's house it would be new pipe and redesign, not cobble around what's there when what is there is a bit suspect.

Also, the heating setup is very much a compromise that I live with, rather than something I would supply to a customer. But doing it properly is currently unaffordable, and I understand the system and can make it do what I want it to do because, unlike most customers, I understand my system well.

I could re-do the bathroom and make it really smart, but this makes no sense environmentally. What I have works, and if it breaks, I have a resident plumber who can make repairs, so why worry?

IF I stay in this house for the long term, then, yes, it will all be good work, but as it is, the plumbing is the least of my concerns and doing things piecemeal when I have no call-out charge to my own house, makes sense in a way that wouldn't make sense for non-plumbers.

Also, I'm surely not the only plumber that uses his own house for the kinds of experiments that I would not inflict on my customers?

Hello Ric2013,

Virtually all of the Plumbing & Heating work that You have mentioned is on existing Plumbing & Heating systems - not `New` Plumbing & Heating installations.

Obviously I understand when there are also Financial constraints.

I feel sure that if You were installing a new Heating system or Re-Plumbing your Home / installing a new Bathroom you would do so at your normal standard of workmanship.

Some Members might disagree with me on this:

I would find it difficult to produce workmanship that was below my normal high standard - my method of working / high standard of workmanship has become habitual.

I would not find any `short cuts` / lower standards of workmanship to be in any way time saving if I tried to lower the standard of my workmanship - actually having to change my methods of doing things would add time to the works.

Chris

 

[Welder]

Tis odd.

My boiler is a 1997 Ideal Mexico which I refuse to change. It supplies a compensated loop for the htg and will stay as long as I'm breathing cos its built like a brick outhouse and, because of the way its controlled, our running costs are better than many, so called, 'efficient' boilers.

Best of all, our environmental footprint is genuinely minimal.

 

[CHRISX]

Tis odd.

My boiler is a 1997 Ideal Mexico which I refuse to change. It supplies a compensated loop for the htg and will stay as long as I'm breathing cos its built like a brick outhouse and, because of the way its controlled, our running costs are better than many, so called, 'efficient' boilers.

Best of all, our environmental footprint is genuinely minimal.

Hello YorkshireDave,

I don`t know if your `Tis odd` comment was about something that I wrote in my message regarding describing installing my Home`s 2nd Boiler, new Radiators, TRV`s etc.

I replaced the Boiler because I wanted it in a completely different position because of refurbishing and altering the layout of my Kitchen and I replaced the Radiators because some of them were 28 years old and most were 18 years old - new Radiators = new TRV`s & Lockshield valves.

The first Boiler that I installed at my Home in 1986 was a Potterton Netaheat Electronic - a large bore waterways cast iron Heat Exchanger and good / reliable controls - still working really well when disconnected from the system in 2014 although regarding `Energy Efficiency` it would be decried by other Heating Engineers and `Green living` aficionados.

However as you mentioned because of good Controls including a Programmable Room Thermostat and TRV`s I do not feel that my Heating system was particularly `inefficient`.

Perhaps I used 10% more Gas than a more efficient Boiler would have used - perhaps £100.00 per year extra costs - hardly anything to be financially concerned about or an incentive to have replaced my Netaheat Boiler with a `more technically advanced Boiler` where the first Breakdown would probably involve replacing a very expensive component.

I like to think that because I serviced it every year and I regularly replaced a `double dose` of Fernox MB1 Corrosion Inhibitor in the Heating system [every 5 years or less after chemical cleansing] it was still working well in 2014 when I replaced it because of alterations to my Home`s Kitchen layout.

I terms of reliability during the 28 years that it heated my Home I had to replace the Gas Control valve [after 25 years], the PCB / Spark Generator & Flame monitor unit [after 26 years] and the Ignition spark lead [after 26 years with the PCB unit].

I am sure that there would have been at least another 5 - 10 Years of `life` left in the Potterton Netaheat Electronic if I did not have to fit a new Boiler in a different position in my Home.

I did consider moving the old Boiler because it had been so reliable but I knew that I would not have been able to get any of the correct Flue pipe and would probably not have been able to remove the existing Netaheat Flue pipe without damaging it - I might have been able to but I remember putting a lot of mortar into the space around the Flue when it was installed.

However the main reason why I bought a new Boiler was that Parts for the Potterton Netaheat Electronic are only available on websites such as Ebay - even then not all replacement parts - the Gas Control valves are no longer stocked by Potterton Interpart or any other Gas component suppliers and I have only ever seen a couple of used ones on Ebay.

So I could not justify reinstalling my old Netaheat in the new position because something would definitely have needed to be replaced at some time and would probably not be available.

I thought that I would respond to your message to mention that although as a Heating Engineer I obviously do agree with `Energy Efficiency` for new Installations - I would have still kept my really reliable `Energy Inefficient` Potterton Netaheat Electronic if there had not been a good reason to install a new Boiler in a different position because of a Kitchen refurbishment / layout alteration.

Good to read that your Boiler is still going well since 1997 - I do remember installing Ideal Mexico`s in the 1990`s and early 2000`s - they seemed well made then but I am sure that it`s longevity has a lot to do with You regarding Corrosion Inhibitor in the Heating system and regular Servicing etc.

Chris

 

[oz-plumber]

My boiler is 17 years old. Changed a couple of pumps and generally give it a 'once over' every few years.
Might have a look at it tomorrow while van is being serviced!!

My hot water service is a Rinnai 24 - never looked at, it but it still works.

Was meant to have replaced the chimney flashings 17 years ago - I remember they didn't look good then, but haven't leaked, so would have been a waste of time and effort to replace them back then.
I really should have another look at them!!!

I could go on, but I won't - I might remember something else that should have been done - that hasn't.

Taps don't leak, toilets don't leak, heating system doesn't leak - come to think of it - nothing leaks.
Why upset something that may end up causing a leak.

 

[Welder]

Hi Chris

It was meant as a simple post. You 'prompted' it but nothing else.

What it illustrates, is that the real environmental and fiscal costs associated with boilers are far more than those highlighted by manufacturers desperate to sell more kit. Most, not all by any means, market their products knowing full well that the numbers they quote regarding efficiencies are only applicable to a very small percentage of boiler destinations. Despite that knowledge they continue to promote in that way so installers become imbibed with those numbers and (incorrectly) end up believing them.

We have always been able to run home system efficiently, its just that few people have been taught the essential basics of good quality controls. Frankly, the latest boiler plus initiative is simply farcical. NO controls can negate living in a leaky bucket so the very first thing any homeowner should do is insulate first. Then, and only then, should one consider anything else...

I could.l go on but won't. I have a business that deserves my attention.

 

[CHRISX]

Hi Chris

It was meant as a simple post. You 'prompted' it but nothing else.

What it illustrates, is that the real environmental and fiscal costs associated with boilers are far more than those highlighted by manufacturers desperate to sell more kit. Most, not all by any means, market their products knowing full well that the numbers they quote regarding efficiencies are only applicable to a very small percentage of boiler destinations. Despite that knowledge they continue to promote in that way so installers become imbibed with those numbers and (incorrectly) end up believing them.

We have always been able to run home system efficiently, its just that few people have been taught the essential basics of good quality controls. Frankly, the latest boiler plus initiative is simply farcical. NO controls can negate living in a leaky bucket so the very first thing any homeowner should do is insulate first. Then, and only then, should one consider anything else...

I could.l go on but won't. I have a business that deserves my attention.

Hello again YorkshireDave,

Thanks for your reply - I asked whether you were commenting on something that I wrote in case I had inadvertently irritated You with my comments in a previous message.

I completely agree with your comments about the ridiculous situation where `Energy Efficient appliances and Heating Controls` are somehow deemed to have provided an `Energy Efficient Heating system` in properties that have little or zero Loft Insulation and old draughty single glazed Windows and Doors.

Although the new Heating system might be running more `efficiently` than an older Boiler and Controls that will be more than negated by the massive unnecessary heat loss in properties which fit your description of a `leaky bucket` !

Just imagine someone fitting a Weather compensation device to a Heating system Boiler that was installed in such a property - as You wrote Farcical !

Chris

 

[Welder]

Hello again YorkshireDave,

Thanks for your reply - I asked whether you were commenting on something that I wrote in case I had inadvertently irritated You with my comments in a previous message.

I completely agree with your comments about the ridiculous situation where `Energy Efficient appliances and Heating Controls` are somehow deemed to have provided an `Energy Efficient Heating system` in properties that have little or zero Loft Insulation and old draughty single glazed Windows and Doors.

Although the new Heating system might be running more `efficiently` than an older Boiler and Controls that will be more than negated by the massive unnecessary heat loss in properties which fit your description of a `leaky bucket` !

Just imagine someone fitting a Weather compensation device to a Heating system Boiler that was installed in such a property - as You wrote Farcical !

Chris

Seen so many times Chris. Our old boiler works beautifully and none of our neighbours can match our fuel consumption despite having brand new boilers and being insulated similarly ;-)

Might be old, but not quite a fruit cake yet!

 

[Ric2013]

If Yorkshire Dave ever wants to run a course or explain how he gets high efficiency out of an inefficient boiler, I'm interested. It's very much up my street - I'm the sort of person that always gets a few more miles per gallon from a vehicle than is generally considered normal. But why be ordinary, eh? It's boring.

Bit Soded off my my system at present. 1987 Potterton Profile with long primary circuit, not very well lagged, and losing too much heat from DHW cylinder. Even with keeping one room shut and not heated, keeping room temperature to 18C in living room, and mostly unheated bedrooms, I still go through 5000kWh of gas in a year, and it is too much gas in my opinion.

Not much more in the way of easy energy efficiency measures I can carry out, sadly. That said, 5000kWh of gas a year means I can't save a great deal by a new boiler, so not an option. Might still be worth it as I can't imagine the embodied CO2 in a new boiler is that high, but the cost of the installation makes me wonder if that's the best use of money.

 

[CHRISX]

If Yorkshire Dave ever wants to run a course or explain how he gets high efficiency out of an inefficient boiler, I'm interested. It's very much up my street - I'm the sort of person that always gets a few more miles per gallon from a vehicle than is generally considered normal. But why be ordinary, eh? It's boring.

Bit ****ed off my my system at present. 1987 Potterton Profile with long primary circuit, not very well lagged, and losing too much heat from DHW cylinder. Even with keeping one room shut and not heated, keeping room temperature to 18C in living room, and mostly unheated bedrooms, I still go through 5000kWh of gas in a year, and it is too much gas in my opinion.

Not much more in the way of easy energy efficiency measures I can carry out, sadly. That said, 5000kWh of gas a year means I can't save a great deal by a new boiler, so not an option. Might still be worth it as I can't imagine the embodied CO2 in a new boiler is that high, but the cost of the installation makes me wonder if that's the best use of money.

Hello Ric2013,

Unless my quick calculation is wrong 5000 KwHrs of Gas only costs about £205.00 ?

My Gas Tariff has just changed / price has increased - I think I will be paying 4.09p per KwHr.

Is that for Heating & Hot Water in the cold months and Hot Water throughout the Year ?

Chris

 

[Welder]

If Yorkshire Dave ever wants to run a course or explain how he gets high efficiency out of an inefficient boiler, I'm interested. It's very much up my street - I'm the sort of person ...

Ric it's really not rocket science. Firstly, my home (despite being 1972 construction) is reasonably well insulated. Despite having laminate or oak floors under all of that solid flooring is 12mm wool & rubber crumb underlay taken right up to the edges. My distribution pipework was insulated as best I could too. My loft has 500mm of rock wool lofted insulation and where I have storage I laid 2x2 on top of the joists and laid 100mm kingspan under the decking. That was like draping a duvet over the place. The walls are insulated but that wasn't so successful. When I installed the woodburner, I discovered a 3x3m section devoid of insulation. 2 years later and I still haven't called the contractors back to sort it! TapMedic got in the way!

I have the boiler feeding a compensated flow circuit so the control valve simply looks at what flow temp is needed according to internal, building fabric & external temps. My wife took some time to get used to it but is now fine with it. All rads have TRVS too.

I've never done a decent heat calc but when the old Mexico finally dies I will do because having a boiler that's oversized is very inefficient due to cycling. My boiler tends to come on, stay on, then go off and stay off. Doing it this way means you get very little overshoot and that wastes huge (relatively) amounts of energy.

Remember. Boiler efficiency numbers must be read with EVERY caveat (bit of small print) both interpreted and applied. In terms of UK housing stock, there are, in my estimation, prob only 20% where a modern boiler can be run with any level of efficiency. The rest is just BS from marketeers.

IN terms of true environmental footprint, just how much energy do you think one boiler takes to make? Remember, every element, every nut bolt, plastic washer etc etc has its own footprint so its true one is genuinely huge. Probably enough (remember its difference you're looking at) to run my old boiler for 20 years.

Let's just take a slice of silicone to make the integrated circuits (chips) on the motherboard. To grow one silicone crystal you have to bake it at 1000 degrees centigrade for one MONTH. That excludes any subsequent processing to turn it into even one chip. ..

We are sold this sh1te every day of our lives and because big organisations tell us stuff we feel it MUST be true. Fact is old bean its lies, damned lies and statistics. Commerce is killing us for profit.

Sorry but you asked!

PS Forgot to mention the woodburner now does all light duty heating. We only burn oak too which are offcuts from a green oak timber framing company locally.

 

[Ric2013]

Chris - I pay 4.967p per kWh - but there is no standing charge whatsoever: just a simple flat rate, so it comes to 261 quid a year with the VAT. I'm just very aware how much gas I use in the summer: around 10kWh just to re-heat a 117l cylinder that has only been used for handwashing and washing up: it's not even cold. However low the cost, it is a waste of a fossil fuel. It might even be more environmentally friendly to use the immersion!

Dave - using Wikipedia (a reliable source?), stainless steel has embodied energy of 57MJ per kg. So if a boiler were 100% stainless steel, the embodied energy of a 100kg (?) boiler would be 1583kWh. An integrated circuit board, according to

https://et4407.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/embodied-energy-in-electronics-1.pdf

would average 1300MJ per kg, and the board might weigh 100g (?), so that's another 361kWh, making the total 1944kWh.

If so, and if a new boiler would cut my bills by 30%, then in 10 years I would use 1944 + 35000kWh = 36944kWh, assuming the boiler lasts 10 years.

By comparison, the old boiler lasts 40 years if I can get the parts (?) and so 486 + 50000 = 50486 kWh per 10 years.

That said, I have seen articles that claim a laptop has the same embodied energy as a car (18,000 kWh, according to VW (Wikipedia)), whereas the above wordpress source claims only 833.

Even if we assume a boiler has the same embodied energy as a VW for ***** and giggles, the new boiler uses 53,000 kWh over its 10 year lifespan, which isn't much worse than my existing boiler (and I somewhat doubt most boilers will only be burning 5000kWh of gas in a year, and that a new boiler has the same embodied energy as a car).

 

[Ric2013]

Dave - with regard to your system, can you please supply a link to a webpage about compensated flow circuits? Accept all you say about cycling. My boiler is oversized for the house now it is better insulated, and cycles even during DHW production. Could do with reducing the gas rate, but local RGIs don't seem interested. I actually do not know a good gas installer locally. I know a good one in Kent, but even if he were to visit, he would be inclined to condemn the boiler on the slightest pretext, basically because he seems to take the opposite attitude to you!

My house is 1870s, and loft only has between 4" plus carpet on loft floor to 15" of fibreglass. Because of its age, it has to be measured in inches . Beyond this, the calculated heat losses don't change very much, so I'm happy with that. Ground floor is mostly 2" of cellotex under boards (old section) or 5" Warmcel under boards (refurbished section), with similar U value. The small kitchen is uninsulated concrete.

Small sections of brick/block cavity walls have sloppy construction with mortar on ties and have had rising damp issues due to rubble in cavity (now removed, but there may be more that will fall down and create a further nuisance) so not inclined to insulate. Solid walls could be insulated to some degree. Biggest problems are shoddy construction of timber-framed elements leading to bypassing of insulation, and draughts which really necessitates removal of internal plasterboard and a partial rebuild.

The next step, however, is to box in the stairs thus ensuring that any heat downstairs stays downstairs, making the ground floor cosy.

Am considering a woodburner and, if so will go for thermal store to integrate backboiler, gas, and possible solar thermal on the basis that a modern insulated thermal store should lose minimal heat and cycling would be eliminated.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ric2013]

If the OP wants me to move to another thread, happy to do so. Just realised I've hijacked the thread

 

[dejr]

No, doesn't matter a jot to me...crack on!

 

[Ric2013]

Well. I measured it today. 8kWh to re-heat the 117l cylinder.

Enough gas, if burned at 100% efficiency, to heat 130l of water from 10°C to 60°C, yet the water was still reasonably hot before the boiler fired up, and all I have done with hot water since it was last heated last night was have a shave and wash up, perhaps wash my hands a couple of times.

Which makes the efficiency of my system very very low.

Worth checking if the coil in the cylinder is heavily scaled?

 

[CHRISX]

Well. I measured it today. 8kWh to re-heat the 117l cylinder.

Enough gas, if burned at 100% efficiency, to heat 130l of water from 10°C to 60°C, yet the water was still reasonably hot before the boiler fired up, and all I have done with hot water since it was last heated last night was have a shave and wash up, perhaps wash my hands a couple of times.

Which makes the efficiency of my system very very low.

Worth checking if the coil in the cylinder is heavily scaled?

Hello Ric2013,

What figures would You get if you did your calculation again using a figure of Gas burning at 78% `efficiency` ?

I have not looked up the rating for a Potterton Profile circa 1987 but I would guess that it would be rated at something close to 78% ?

I was not trying to irritate You or be sarcastic when I wrote about the Gas usage that you stated only costing about £205.00 - I had not quite understood what you were getting at in your first message - having read your subsequent messages I think that I now understand your points.

My Home`s Gas bill for an average Winter quarter [if we have an `average` winter quarter ?] is more than 2.5 times that figure and the only days that the Heating system is running for more than about 9 hours per day is at weekends.

The system is temperature controlled by a Programmable Room Thermostat with various temperatures set throughout the `On` periods on the Programmer.

In Years that have a cold Spring and Autumn as well as our `average Winter` I would be lucky to get Gas Bills for the year that totalled less than £1000.00.

My Home is not particularly large although bigger than an average 3 Bedroom House - I installed the Heating system and it obviously has Time and Temperature controls including a Programmable Room Thermostat and TRV`s - the Loft has ample insulation [420mm in 3 cross layers] - there is good Double glazing throughout the Home - but I have 9" Solid walls.

We also use over £1000.00 of Electricity per Year and pay about £380.00 per year for Water and Sewerage.

£2400.00 per Year for the basic Utilities - not including Telephone / BT or Broadband - is quite an increase if compared to the Bills of even just 4 or 5 years ago.

Although I have been on various `Fixed Price Tariffs` during the last 5 years my EDF Electricity KwHr unit price in early 2015 was 12.64p - in 2016 it was increased to 16.24p - at the end of October it will go to 19p.

In less than 4 Years this increase from 12.64p to 19p is just over a 50% !

Utilities price increases are supposedly reported in the Media and on Price comparison websites such as `Money Saving Expert` and `Uswitch`- does anyone remember ever reading that Electricity prices have increased by 50% in the last 4 years ?

Sorry to have gone even further `Off Topic`.

Chris