New to oil boilers & need loads of info.

[daz103]

Hi all.
Okay.
Long storey but, I'll try & keep it as short as possible.
We are buying a house that is in a little rural village so no gas. A guy bought it to renovate & sell over but it appears, bit off a little more than he can chew as apparently he usually buys cheap properties, toshes them out & rents or sells them, but this property needed Lots more work done & not a lot of it has been done, but with what has, there has been no corner left uncut!
The guys "Builder" (who then said he was actually a Painter, & even then has done a poor job) showed us round. I asked him about the boiler (which is in the corner of the dining room. Already there when he bought it) He seemed a little vague when I asked him about it, & said they never actually used it & the neighbour new how to use it & she would show me(she had a puzzled look on her face when I mentioned it when she introduced herself) I have since checked the tank & its empty (& I mean empty, not a drop in it) & no water comes out of the hot water taps (just a tiny trickle). There is only one small header tank in the loft? I was expecting 2 tanks (one for central heating & one for hot water tank) the copper tank is in the cupboard upstairs.
I'm not confident if the boiler even works & I don't want to go putting 500 litres of oil in the tank only to find out that it doesn't work when I get someone to service it.
So few questions?
What is the minimum amount of oil I would be able to order?
Why would there only be one tank in the loft?
Can you get oil fed boilers that are basically the same as more modern gas combi boilers rather than the big thing sat on the floor in the dining room?
If so can they run a hot & cold feed shower rather than having to rely on an electric one?
And last question is, if you can get a modern combi style boiler what sort of price would I be looking at for a one supplied & fitted but moved to a different location? (the rads & valves are ancient & its microbore pipe so I was going to renew all the rads anyway & put all new pipework in too. Oh which gives me one last question? Can i use 10mm Speedfit or would I be better off using 15mm?
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
And like I say. Oil isn't something that I'm familiar with, so apologies if they are stupid questions.

Thanks
Darren

 

[SJB060685]

Question 1. You'd have to ring several oil delivery companies and ask what the minimum they would deliver is. However, if you could source an engineer with a few litres spare its possible to use a container of oil just to see if the burner would fire and maintain flame.
Question 2. If you only have the CWSC in the loft the oil boiler is most likely to be a system boiler with sealed heating system.
Question 3. You can get oil combi boilers, although these are large floor standing units quite a lot bigger than their gas cousins with the same output. An external boiler is something you could consider.
Question 4. You would have to contact some firms, explain your wants and needs and get several quotes. Your location will play a part in amount as well as make of boiler, location etc etc. You aught to look at having the tank brought upto current regulations as well.
Last question. Im not a fan of microbore systems, they can clog up more readily if the system is not clean and kept clean but also should be sized accordingly. Anyone designing and quoting for the system will be able to tell you whats required.

 

[daz103]

Hi.
Thankyou for taking the time to reply.
I spoke briefly to a guy in Wolsley near to where we currently live, to also ask about if an oil fed combi boiler which could be wall hung like a modern gas one was available, rather than a big floor standing thing & he said "Yeah, sure we can get one for you, just let us know & we'll get you a price" so I'm guessing its not something he's ordered before, & just assumed that one similar to a gas version could be had?
Sorry if its a stupid question, but even if it did mean a bigger floor standing one, if we got a modern combi style one, would that mean we will be able to get rid of the header tank out the loft & the copper tank in the cupboard?
And with the combi, can I fit a thermostatic shower rather than an electric?
And regarding the old microbore. No surprise that you aint a fan. I'm yet to find someone who says they like the stuff! A gas safe heating engineer that I used to occasionally use before he retired, once said that he was encouraged to use it, & it was cheaper & easier to work with, no (Or very little) fittings needed etc, but the cost of the manifold cancelled out the saving.
He said it was the biggest pile of crap invented ha ha.
Anyway. Going off track. So heating engineer will be best to advise me on putting in 10 or 15mm speedfit? I was planning on asking them to give me rad sizes & type per room too which saves me calculating BTU's & wondering if I should then slightly over compensate to make sure?
I didn't even realise you could get external ones, so that's something I could look at?
I've had Loads of conflicting advice from those I've asked so a bit of a minefield on deciding what at the moment?
An old guy whose house I was working at a couple of days ago told me to get rid of the oil & get gas, but the lady who lives nearby to the new house (well new to us, but far from a new house) said the complete opposite & Not to get gas. But she has had an external electric heat pump fitted which she says is cheaper than the gas but says she has to get through the winter to find out the cost herself? But again I thought electric was the most expensive of all 3 options?
If yourself, or anyone else reading this can give a bit more input it would be greatly appreciated.
Refurbing the rest of the house for me is a breeze, but this bit is all new to me!

Darren

 

[SJB060685]

As far as I know there are no wall hung oil combi boilers. The shear size and weight would require some serious mounting to a solid wall. If there is such available then I apologise but i've not come across one, ever.
Yes installing an oil combi boiler will allow you to get rid of the HW cylinder and the tank in the loft. Yes you could fit a thermostatic shower but bare in mind combis are usually sized for HW flow rate performance, having said that an oversized combi for HW performance is not good on an oil combi. They do not fully modulate like their gas cousins currently (although the technology is heading that way), so installing a 35KW combi for good HW performance is not good for condensing if your CH load is only 15KW for example.
When designing a heating system many things have to be considered, one of which is the flow rates required to the emitters, yes microbore off a manifold system would work as each emitter (radiator) will be fed of its on microbore loop. Providing the maths is done then it will work if it adds up but you certainly wouldn't run multiple radiators of a single microbore loop. The other good thing about microbore manifold systems is they can need very little or even no effort to balance as each sub circuit is kept to an almost identical pressure loss. The bad point however is as I mentioned above, they can clog up more readily. Providing the new system is flushed, with the right inhibitor and concentration and suitable dirt and air separation then the chances of that happening is really quite low. Now you mentioned an ASHP? I can tell you now if that was considered at a later date after you had an oil system installed on microbore then virtually all of the system will need to be redone as the pipe sizes will be inadequate for the higher flow rates and lower delta t of an ASHP, many of my associates are now recommending future proofing for such systems.
With regards to heat loss calculations it needs to be done properly, no cutting corners. There are several ways to go about it but perhaps the best and most complex route is a website or app called Heat Engineer. This is created and run by an associate of mine and is very, very good at giving all the right information, the only problem is you will need a lot of information about fabric of your building to do the calculations. Failing that your engineer will be able to do it all for you when designing and quoting. Another thing I will point out is if you were to upgrade to an ASHP at a later date then the radiators will need to be larger due to the then new low temperature system and the existing being undersized. I suggest you think hard about which energy source you take on. I personally have an ASHP for my flat. In the warmer months its electricity use is very cheap, however in the colder months my electricity a week is doubled at least but thats how these units work and is part and parcel.
Electricity can be one of the best efficiency wise for energy transfer, although its also the most expensive.

Edit: ASHP's would be useless in an older property with poor envolope insulation. If this is a route you're going to research and possibly pursue then you will need to upgrade the insulation of your property to a better level.

 

[Gasmk1]

do you have room outside there are oil boilers that can be fitted outside this way frees up space in kitchen

 

[Chuck]

An old guy whose house I was working at a couple of days ago told me to get rid of the oil & get gas, but the lady who lives nearby to the new house (well new to us, but far from a new house) said the complete opposite & Not to get gas.

If mains gas is available I'd prefer it to oil.

Rather than relying on 'the lady who lives nearby' to design your system, I'd strongly advise you to get an established heating engineer to take a look at the property, do a heat loss calculation and price up a couple of options for you. There are lots of things to take into consideration and many pros and cons to weigh up.

 

[exedon2]

There are wall hung oil combi boilers HRM wallstar fitted odd ones taken a few out!
If you have room for it a external a Grant would be my choice, but has been said find your self a competent heating engineer who regularly installs oil systems. Most installers will have own preference regarding materials and make of rads/boiler ect. For instance we are Grant registered installer's which enables us to offer extended warranties at no extra cost to customer.

 

[SJB060685]

There are wall hung oil combi boilers HRM wallstar fitted odd ones taken a few out!
If you have room for it a external a Grant would be my choice, but has been said find your self a competent heating engineer who regularly installs oil systems. Most installers will have own preference regarding materials and make of rads/boiler ect. For instance we are Grant registered installer's which enables us to offer extended warranties at no extra cost to customer.

I imagine HRM are the only manufacturer that produce the combis wall hung based on how they mount to the structure of the building? Either way I've never seen one

 

[Brambles]

Darren,

I would start off again at the beginning as to what you want you system to deliver and how much your budget is.

The cheapest to operate will probably be an air source heat pump -which if you can find an accredited installer who is not fully booked can be fitted with a Green Deal funding contribution of £5k ish.

The cheapest ( after mains gas) to instal is either floor mounted oil or an LPG combi.

Wall mounted oil combis are generally only up to 25kw - and they are enormous - at least three times the size and weight of a natural gas combi. I also find them difficult to service / repair - they are very compact and often installed in difficult to access locations.

None of these options are cheap - generally all about 3 times the cost of an equivalent mains gas system.

The best advice you can get is to get a few decent installers around to talk through the options. Oil fired boilers are not as forgiving as a modulating gas fired - they need to be properly specified or you could have years of disappointing performance ahead of you.

SJB has some good points - if wall mounted oil fired combis were a good choice - he would have seen one! There are not, in my experience

 

[daz103]

As far as I know there are no wall hung oil combi boilers. The shear size and weight would require some serious mounting to a solid wall. If there is such available then I apologise but i've not come across one, ever.
Yes installing an oil combi boiler will allow you to get rid of the HW cylinder and the tank in the loft. Yes you could fit a thermostatic shower but bare in mind combis are usually sized for HW flow rate performance, having said that an oversized combi for HW performance is not good on an oil combi. They do not fully modulate like their gas cousins currently (although the technology is heading that way), so installing a 35KW combi for good HW performance is not good for condensing if your CH load is only 15KW for example.
When designing a heating system many things have to be considered, one of which is the flow rates required to the emitters, yes microbore off a manifold system would work as each emitter (radiator) will be fed of its on microbore loop. Providing the maths is done then it will work if it adds up but you certainly wouldn't run multiple radiators of a single microbore loop. The other good thing about microbore manifold systems is they can need very little or even no effort to balance as each sub circuit is kept to an almost identical pressure loss. The bad point however is as I mentioned above, they can clog up more readily. Providing the new system is flushed, with the right inhibitor and concentration and suitable dirt and air separation then the chances of that happening is really quite low. Now you mentioned an ASHP? I can tell you now if that was considered at a later date after you had an oil system installed on microbore then virtually all of the system will need to be redone as the pipe sizes will be inadequate for the higher flow rates and lower delta t of an ASHP, many of my associates are now recommending future proofing for such systems.
With regards to heat loss calculations it needs to be done properly, no cutting corners. There are several ways to go about it but perhaps the best and most complex route is a website or app called Heat Engineer. This is created and run by an associate of mine and is very, very good at giving all the right information, the only problem is you will need a lot of information about fabric of your building to do the calculations. Failing that your engineer will be able to do it all for you when designing and quoting. Another thing I will point out is if you were to upgrade to an ASHP at a later date then the radiators will need to be larger due to the then new low temperature system and the existing being undersized. I suggest you think hard about which energy source you take on. I personally have an ASHP for my flat. In the warmer months its electricity use is very cheap, however in the colder months my electricity a week is doubled at least but thats how these units work and is part and parcel.
Electricity can be one of the best efficiency wise for energy transfer, although its also the most expensive.

Edit: ASHP's would be useless in an older property with poor envolope insulation. If this is a route you're going to research and possibly pursue then you will need to upgrade the insulation of your property to a better level.

Thankyou SJB. Certainly a lot of information there, & you have gave me plenty to consider/think about.
I appreciate it 👍

If mains gas is available I'd prefer it to oil.

Rather than relying on 'the lady who lives nearby' to design your system, I'd strongly advise you to get an established heating engineer to take a look at the property, do a heat loss calculation and price up a couple of options for you. There are lots of things to take into consideration and many pros and cons to weigh up.

Hi Chuck.
No mains gas available as the area is rural. I would 100% went for mains gas if it were available.

Darren,

I would start off again at the beginning as to what you want you system to deliver and how much your budget is.

The cheapest to operate will probably be an air source heat pump -which if you can find an accredited installer who is not fully booked can be fitted with a Green Deal funding contribution of £5k ish.

The cheapest ( after mains gas) to instal is either floor mounted oil or an LPG combi.

Wall mounted oil combis are generally only up to 25kw - and they are enormous - at least three times the size and weight of a natural gas combi. I also find them difficult to service / repair - they are very compact and often installed in difficult to access locations.

None of these options are cheap - generally all about 3 times the cost of an equivalent mains gas system.

The best advice you can get is to get a few decent installers around to talk through the options. Oil fired boilers are not as forgiving as a modulating gas fired - they need to be properly specified or you could have years of disappointing performance ahead of you.

SJB has some good points - if wall mounted oil fired combis were a good choice - he would have seen one! There are not, in my experience

Brambles.
Thankyou to you too for the information.
I think based on what yourself & SJB has said, we can eliminate the wall mounted combi. But just out of curiosity, why is it that a similar size wall mounted oil isn't available? Is it purely down to the demand isn't there to justify companies designing one, or is there a lot more to it than that ?

So am I right in thinking from what you have said, that although an air source heat pump will be the most expensive to fit, but the cheapest to run? And cheaper than oil?

I'm starting to hope that the boiler can be serviced/repaired fairly cheaply, just to get me through the winter & give me more time to get prices, & calculate the most cost effective option.

If anyone else has anything they would like to add, then please feel free to do so. But as said, some great info from you guys so far & really appreciated👍
Darren

 

[SJB060685]

Darren

The HRM Wallstar combi 24KW for example weighs 140kg empty. Thats a flow rate of around 10 litres per minute. A combi with better flow rates will be larger and weigh a lot more. Oil combis are different to gas, they utilise a small thermal store to assist in instant hot water at the taps, this adds a lot of weight to the units and why I imagine wall hung oil combis are not common. Just picture the support needed to safely hold up over 140kg.

 

[Brambles]

With respect to running cost an Air Source heat pump will cost slightly more than mains gas, but significantly less than oil.

However, you cannot just “plug in” an air source heat pump into an existing installation. It needs to be properly designed and the house insulated to a high standard and draught proofed

 

[MikeJhn]

I would love to see the figures that confirm that an Air Source Heat pump is less efficient than gas.

 

[Brambles]

If you take a heating requirement of 15,000kw with gas at 3.5p/kwhr and electricity at 17p /kwhr. You would need an average annual Cop in well in excess of 3 before the efficiency of Air source delivers a cheaper annual running cost.

Of course if you have cheaper sources of electricity such as a decent FIT that should improve the position.

That’s just running cost - you also need equate the equipment and installation cost to determine the full return on capital.

The last Nibe 12kw airsource installation we put in was nearly £14k

 

[John.g]

I would love to see the figures that confirm that an Air Source Heat pump is less efficient than gas.

A ASHP would have to have a COP of ~ 0.85 to be as "bad" as a gas fired boiler, most would be ~ 2.8 to maybe 4, but as pointed out above, they may not be as cost efficient/effective with present energy cost differentials.

 

[MikeJhn]

Ah I was basing my view point from my perspective as a French home owner, where oil and gas is massively more expensive that electricity, all being fully taxed and gas only available in bottles, oil at it's present rate being £0.95/Lt.

 

[John.g]

The electricity must be really cheap (nuclear?) as your oil is £0,095/kwh, my last fill of oil (kerosene) was only £0.04/kwh but full price electricity around here is ~ £0.16/kwh.

 

[MikeJhn]

I was quick enough to fill my oil tank in the UK @ £0.18lt in the middle of this year.

Yes the French electricity is supplied by Nuclear power and is cheap on the standard tariff @ 8.31 cts € HT/kWh.

 

[Jagorover]

As far as I know there are no wall hung oil combi boilers. The shear size and weight would require some serious mounting to a solid wall. If there is such available then I apologise but i've not come across one, ever.
Yes installing an oil combi boiler will allow you to get rid of the HW cylinder and the tank in the loft. Yes you could fit a thermostatic shower but bare in mind combis are usually sized for HW flow rate performance, having said that an oversized combi for HW performance is not good on an oil combi. They do not fully modulate like their gas cousins currently (although the technology is heading that way), so installing a 35KW combi for good HW performance is not good for condensing if your CH load is only 15KW for example.
When designing a heating system many things have to be considered, one of which is the flow rates required to the emitters, yes microbore off a manifold system would work as each emitter (radiator) will be fed of its on microbore loop. Providing the maths is done then it will work if it adds up but you certainly wouldn't run multiple radiators of a single microbore loop. The other good thing about microbore manifold systems is they can need very little or even no effort to balance as each sub circuit is kept to an almost identical pressure loss. The bad point however is as I mentioned above, they can clog up more readily. Providing the new system is flushed, with the right inhibitor and concentration and suitable dirt and air separation then the chances of that happening is really quite low. Now you mentioned an ASHP? I can tell you now if that was considered at a later date after you had an oil system installed on microbore then virtually all of the system will need to be redone as the pipe sizes will be inadequate for the higher flow rates and lower delta t of an ASHP, many of my associates are now recommending future proofing for such systems.
With regards to heat loss calculations it needs to be done properly, no cutting corners. There are several ways to go about it but perhaps the best and most complex route is a website or app called Heat Engineer. This is created and run by an associate of mine and is very, very good at giving all the right information, the only problem is you will need a lot of information about fabric of your building to do the calculations. Failing that your engineer will be able to do it all for you when designing and quoting. Another thing I will point out is if you were to upgrade to an ASHP at a later date then the radiators will need to be larger due to the then new low temperature system and the existing being undersized. I suggest you think hard about which energy source you take on. I personally have an ASHP for my flat. In the warmer months its electricity use is very cheap, however in the colder months my electricity a week is doubled at least but thats how these units work and is part and parcel.
Electricity can be one of the best efficiency wise for energy transfer, although its also the most expensive.

Edit: ASHP's would be useless in an older property with poor envolope insulation. If this is a route you're going to research and possibly pursue then you will need to upgrade the insulation of your property to a better level.

I have had a wall hung combi for 6 years,yes its heavy but mt house is all timber, I just fitted extra studs in the right place, just had the 1st issue no complaints, Grandee boiler, the guys that run it now DD heating i think they are called could not be more helpful.

 

[SimonG]

I have had a wall hung combi for 6 years,yes its heavy but mt house is all timber, I just fitted extra studs in the right place, just had the 1st issue no complaints, Grandee boiler, the guys that run it now DD heating i think they are called could not be more helpful.

The worst oil boiler ever to hit the market. Absolute bag of cack.