Nibe F2015 Air Sourced Heat Pump..... Chances of selling second hand?

[Dave2360]

Hello All

Forgive me if this the wrong forum for this question, but i could really do with some direction from the experts!

I have recently moved into a new Millgate Homes house that came complete with a Nibe F2015 ASHP for all heating requirements (ex Hot Water for taps). The house also included an Energy Monitor and as you can possibly guess we seemed to be using a lot of electricity and accumulating a hefty power bill.. on the last check it was £490 for a seven week period, or £10 a day average.

We had no warning of the high costs associated to the ASHP and when escalated to the MD of Millgate Homes he accepted that they are not the best option for an area with Gas Supply due to the high running costs. In fact, he stated that they have installed 20 over the past 3 years to meet the local councils directives around renewables and in that period 18 have been decommissioned, I guess leaving only me and another soon to be shocked Millgate customer with them running..

When asked why i was not informed of the highcosts, he replied, 'your a business man' what would you have done... got to admire his transparency.

Anyhow, enough moaning. Millgate have offered to cover the cost of removing the ASHP, but on the agreement that they keep all the associated kit - F2015 + Buffer Tank + SMO 05 etc... In my mind not a good deal given the RRP of this kit and the fact its only 5-6 months old. Alternatively, they suggest that I pay for the system to be removed and then sell second hand to cover costs..

My plumber seems to think I will be able to sell second hand, but i have not seen and second hand/refurbished systems on ebay etc, so is anyone likely to buy??

Can anyone provide any guidance on reselling such a system? I have spoken to a number of Nibe premier fitters listed on nibe.com and whilst they have been really useful in terms of how best to run the system, none have been interested in buying.

Hopefully you can offer guidance and i have not offended anyone with a sales question!

Many Thanks

Dave

 

[eaton]

It will be undersized running on a big immersion back up, hence large price, builders speck too small a unit to run on its own, plus the unit is pants, check out moneysavingexpert forum

 

[Dave2360]

It will be undersized running on a big immersion back up, hence large price, builders speck too small a unit to run on its own, plus the unit is pants, check out moneysavingexpert forum

Thank you for your thoughts -it is an 12kw unit - so perhaps to small? And agree the emersion is adding to the cost.

If sized correctly would this system work out cheaper than gas alternative?

And finally... Any thoughts on being able to sell second hand?

 

[eaton]

Against natural gas no, I'm not keen to be honest, I don't know of anyone who has one that's happy, and I know around 500 people with them

 

[MattWeth]

Unfortunately gas remains cheaper to run than an ashp (even a correctly sized one). Even if you were allowed rhi (which you wouldn't be in mains gas area), gas would still be cheaper.

To be honest your council should be sued for allowing / forcing a patently ill advised installation.

Regarding the no cost removal offer from your builder - I'd snatch his hand off.

 

[poorman]

We've got a 8.5kw nibe ASHPin a small 3 bedroom house, running 7rads and a kick space heater(another rad) after 5 months of banging our heads against the wall the initial problems have been solved (almost) we have not had the immersers switched on apart from as short period to see what they would do to the running costs(eek). At the moment its averaging £4.05 a day over the last 11 months although the last 19 days has averaged £3.23 a day, we are at home most of the time. That is the electricity usage for the whole house. I put the two immersers on for a week, the electricity usage went up to £9.00 a day, so much for my carbon footprint!
Hot water prodution is pretty poor, half a bath and its starting to go cold. But the house is warmer, much warmer overall than the storage heaters we had before. So we have installed an electric shower.
The cost though will work out about £400 more than last year and its been really mild compared to the last two years.
I read on a Danish web site that the only way to keep the running costs of these down was to monitor them constantly, thats what I've been doing. Properly insulated, our house is almost there and ASHP seems to be working okay.

 

[eaton]

Ashp insatlled correctly can run up to 20% cheaper than ng, but cost of install is double so not really worth it

 

[CMcM]

In citys where ng is avalible u would have to be "eco minded" to isntall one but anywhere that was oil its a no brainer, pays its self on in no time.
ASHP are the most expensive to run but cheaper to install than ground loops or bore holes. The hot water, dont run ur tap at full speed allow the hp to work while ur draining all the hot water or maybe hit the boost button and take it from 50oc to 60 30mins before ur bath.

What size is your buffer tank and hot water tank?

Check ur run times and compressor start stops, menu 5. also see what ur additional heat hours are...

Using these HPs is about making wee changes here and there.

Prob better selling the parts from the unit for fault units. You can get goverment grants for buying these interest free so dont know why someone would take money out there account earning interest (ok low amount) when you can pay it back interest free.
How much were you hopeing to get?

 

[poorman]

An update on our air source system, we have just had a period of temps down to -2 and the heat pump whilst keeping the house reasonably warm is costing in the region of £15 per day!!. We are on hydro electrics economy 10, off peak is 10.23p and high peak is 18.17p with the daily charge of 14.90p. We are in a local authority house and were told that these HPs would reduce our electric prices by up to 50%, in fact it is the opposite our electric costs have jumped by 150% although some of that is down to the rip off cost of electricity. The installers are rather aloof blaming the high costs on those operating the systems, the local authority has admitted that they know nothing about ASHP and but are themselves quick to blame the tenants, they've had numerous complaints.
The installation of these machines was I suspect a mixture of local authorities trying to meet the pressing government targets for emissions by 2015 and all those that saw that as a open door to making a quick buck, our installation was tendered to a plumbing company who's MD told me that he didn't know anything about heat pumps, it was then sub contracted to another company purporting to be a renewable energy company who were really just 'product managing' the job who then sub contracted it to another plumbing company, there must have been a huge profit built into the original tender.
At the moment the house is asleep except for the dim light of my laptop, the only things using electricity are the fridge, the hub and the phone and the heat pump, my meter shows the cost fluctuating between 67p and 33p an hour and at present temps the pump will run almost continuous, we gat 10 cheap rate, 4.30 -7,30, 1.30 -4.30 and 8.30- 00.30. Our previous system was storage heaters, with cheap rate between 11.30pm to 7.30am the storage heaters did though only heat some of the house but we had 225ltrs of hot water and an electric bill that was in the region of £750 - £850 per year.
My advice to anyone thinking about ASHP is only to consider them as a last choice, as NIBE's UK page states these units are designed for a NORDIC CLIMATE, ours is a temperate climate with high humidity and huge temperature swings.
The UK has gone down a strange route, two of my sons wanted to be a plumber and electrician but there are no apprenticeships anymore (or like hens teeth) and you cannot go to college anymore to do a full time course unless sponsored by a company which makes it really a closed shop. I shall update the results of my querying the system along with running costs (gulp) over the next few months.

 

[eaton]

That's a really poor statement, unfortunately you have a unit that for me isn't really an ashp, its undersized no doubt and not running efficiently, I have quote a few running and they are saving people a hell of a lot of money compared to storage heaters or oil.

 

[poorman]

That's a really poor statement, unfortunately you have a unit that for me isn't really an ashp, its undersized no doubt and not running efficiently, I have quote a few running and they are saving people a hell of a lot of money compared to storage heaters or oil.

One of the problems is that there seems to be a huge gap between some of the people/companies advising and selling these machines, we were told as I have previously said that the system would save us around 50% on our heating bills and we can only rely on their so called expertise, even last night I looked at website stating that these ASHP would save up to 60% on electricity bills.

The companies importing and selling these machines may be quite honest in their claims but its the installers, some who don't really understand the technology,that are more than likely, quite capable plumbers that let people down and unfortunately everyone gets tarred with the same brush. I stand by my statement in saying that if you are thinking of renewing your heating system stay away from ASHPs, with electricity prices going through the roof to satisfy shareholders dividends these system which are really electric hot water heating systems will only get dearer to run, if the price of PV panels came down drastically so that everyone could afford them then perhaps these systems would really be cheap to run, if the control board goes in the Nibe how much will it cost to replace? £1000, technology is fine but making things simple to install, easy and cheap to run should be the way forward.

 

[eaton]

I've got a customer who I installed ashp for, he had storage heaters, he's had one full winter and is saving over £500 a year

 

[erpkid]

People buy all sorts of stuff on eBay. Anyone in an oil area would be interested.

 

[eaton]

I'd strip it for parts, its worthless whole as units shockingly bad

 

[MattWeth]

People buy all sorts of stuff on eBay. Anyone in an oil area would be interested.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It'd have to be someone with a well insulated property that happened to be perfectly sized to suit a rubbish second hand HP...

 

[Ian woodward]

Hi Dave
Are you still thinking of selling the unit
I would be interested in purchasing
Ian

 

[poorman]

We've had a nibe F2015 since 2011 as you can see from previous posts and I'd agree that the costs can be really high, ours was originally installed when it was a council house and were advised to run it on economy 10 and leave as it was set up.
We have never switched the immerse heaters on even in the winter and run it on manual setup, we have a water solar panel fitted to the system which is useless in the North West Highlands.
WE switch off the heating side to so it only supply hot water in the summer and use the boost at any other times so it provides us with enough hot water, 145 litres.
We now own the house and have had external insulation fitted by Eon, its a 1950 house with solid brick walls and the nibe now heats the house very quickly.
I have though fitted a multifuel stove that we use in the evenings during the winter, it warms most of the house and makes it very cosy.
We moved from "recommended" economy 10 to a standard tariff and last year, 2016 our electricity was just under £900. our wood was £297, still got a third left of it left over,and we use calor for cooking which costs under £100 a year.
The nibe is clean, quiet and apart from the expansion tank needing replaced works well.
Nibe said that they need to be fitted to extremely well insulated houses.
Which is a must.
The council knew nothing about these pumps and were just complying with government regulations to lower their council property carbon foot prints, I think they actually meant turn the office heaters down but decided to pass it on to their council tenants.
Unless you are prepared to run it as we do and not leave it to its own madness I would bin it, the first winter after we had it fitted it ran after midnight for 4.30hrs constantly on high peak rate which where we live was 19.40kwh, the dearest electricity in the UK from hydro electric. Today we are on 12.3p standard British gas.
As for second hand buyer will you find a buyer? Our council have been replacing them first with wood chip boilers, but they had problems with them catching fire, so are now back to air source and ground source heat pumps but not with Nibe.
I would accept the offer if it is to replace the nibe with a gas boiler.

 

[Worcester]

Anything installed prior to about 2013, usually has major installation issues, we'd scrap it after properly de-gassing it.

This year as previous years, about 20% (of the number of projects) of our Air source work is fixing other installers c**p installations. I wouldn't touch it!

 

[Sparkgap]

ASHP fine for low temp systems such as UFH but for getting proper hot water temps (60C) or high temps for rads and convectors the efficiency drops through the floor and they need immersion heater backup. By 'suitable for a nordic climate' I take it means they can operate at sub zero outside temps.
I'd beware what info manufacturers give for performance: had a commercial UFH off a 75kW ASHP however manufacturers were quoting standard figures based on 7C outside temp. When I said we wanted performance for -4C outside (specified operating conditions) they resized the unit to 100kW which in turn caused issues with a replacement substation which was going in. Go for gas anyday!

 

[Worcester]

ASHP fine for low temp systems such as UFH but for getting proper hot water temps (60C) or high temps for rads and convectors the efficiency drops through the floor and they need immersion heater backup. By 'suitable for a nordic climate' I take it means they can operate at sub zero outside temps.
I'd beware what info manufacturers give for performance: had a commercial UFH off a 75kW ASHP however manufacturers were quoting standard figures based on 7C outside temp. When I said we wanted performance for -4C outside (specified operating conditions) they resized the unit to 100kW which in turn caused issues with a replacement substation which was going in. Go for gas anyday!

PROPERLY designed and installed systems cause no problems - we have loads of more than satisfied customers. We design in Worcestershire for -5°C outdoors and appropriate flow temperatures depending upon emitter type and design. When sized correctly, radiators can run at 45°C flow - we do it all the time with no problems. We have heat pumps that can happily go down to -20° at full outuput.

Not only that we design OUT the immersion heater backup systems, indeed the MCS standard doesn't allow you to consider the immersion backup in normal operation.

Choosing the right type of heat pump for the designed environment is critical. Manufacturers quote A7/W35 as a default because that is the EU standard, performance figures for designed outdoor temp and flow temp are all available.

Some heatpumps (checkout C02 heatpumps) are more than capable of providing 60° at high SCoP's

I can point to some terrible boiler installs when they haven't been designed or installed properly, and we come across loads of bad gas and oil installations.

As I say a badly designed or badly installed system WILL cause problems, - we've just spend 4 days completely reinstalling and reconfiguring a twin ASHP system, it needed replumbing with the correct size pipework, supplying and installing the correct flow controls and configuring the heat pumps correctly. It now runs effectively and efficiently, it was impossible to run it efficiently the way it was previously installed.

99%+ of plumbers and gas/oil engineers don't have a clue how to install or configure a heat pump system.

p.s. If you want to spend twice as much on your annual heating than you need to then gas is your correct choice. If your into energy efficiency and reduced running costs, then heat pumps can be the better solution.

Time for the industry to stop dashing for gas and start to think energy efficiency.

 

[poorman]

Our biggest problem was exactly what you have said, plumbers not knowing what they were doing from the main contractor down to their two subcontractors but the actual pipe work isn't bad at all that is if you forgive them for installing the two houses with the same pipe work they bent for one!!! The sub contractor that professed to be heat pump engineers made a fortune installing this sort of technology to the council, a fortune.
So anyway we ended up, passed by our ex council's building control officer, with the system plumbed back to front, our tundish is around the back of the tank as is one of the immersion heaters, which if ever needs replacing will have to be done by a midget contortionist trained as a plumber, we have been told that correcting the plumbers work would be as costly as installing the system.
But with the house now properly insulated and drafts kept to the minimum the system now works well and brings the house up to 20 degrees quite fast.

 

[Sparkgap]

PROPERLY designed and installed systems cause no problems - we have loads of more than satisfied customers. We design in Worcestershire for -5°C outdoors and appropriate flow temperatures depending upon emitter type and design. When sized correctly, radiators can run at 45°C flow - we do it all the time with no problems. We have heat pumps that can happily go down to -20° at full outuput.

Not only that we design OUT the immersion heater backup systems, indeed the MCS standard doesn't allow you to consider the immersion backup in normal operation.

Choosing the right type of heat pump for the designed environment is critical. Manufacturers quote A7/W35 as a default because that is the EU standard, performance figures for designed outdoor temp and flow temp are all available.

Some heatpumps (checkout C02 heatpumps) are more than capable of providing 60° at high SCoP's
...............

99%+ of plumbers and gas/oil engineers don't have a clue how to install or configure a heat pump system.

I quite agree. And with the system in question (and also with a couple of wood pellet systems some years ago with a different supplier) we went to supposed 'experts'. In the case of the ASHP it was inconvenient as at the end of the day the main contractor ended up with less spare capacity on the substation, however with the pellet systems the saga dragged on for nearly five years and cost a bundle.