Old House - New System Help Needed

[GST]

Morning folks,

I would appreciate all feedback on my current predicament;

My House

100yr old red brick semi
x3 bedrooms
x1 bathroom (with electric shower)

My Heating System

W&E tank in the loft
Copper water cylinder in back bedroom (cupbaord built round it).

My Problem

I am rennovating upstairs (complete strip down & replaster) and called in a plummer to quote for replacing and repositioning all the upstairs rads. Whilst there I had him look at the copper cylinder and advise on how I could move it out of the bedroom. He has advised that the copper cylinder is old, knackered, and as heat efficient as water bottle. I cant tell the model but there is a metal plate with 1987 stamped on it, so yeah its old.

The plumber also looked at the boiler in the garage and advised it is "old" as well. It's a Grant "boiler house" style but I cannot tell exactly what model. It is also leaking a small amount of oil via the front motor area and has lime-esque buildup all over the flue area. I bought the house last year off an elderly woman, and knew that certain things hadnt been touched in many years.

My Thinking

I really need to deal with the copper cylinder first as I need the space and its knackered anyway. There is simply nowhere else the cylinder can go except the loft. So I feel my options are as follows;

1. Stick in a new "like for like " copper cylinder and redocorate, total cost c.£500. See how long I get out of the oil boiler and deal with that down the line.

2. Upgrade to an unvented system, stick the "Megaflow" in the loft and remove the existing tanks / cylinder. See how long I can get out of the boiler and deal with that down the line. Total cost c.£1500

3. Upgrade to an unvented system & new oil boiler. Total cost c.£3k.

4. Pull out all tanks / cylinders and stick in an oil fired combi. All problems resolved, total cost c.2k.


As stated, my house is small to med in size with only one bathroom. I'm thinking a combi boiler might be the sensible and cost effective mehtod to resolve my issues and I should do it now whilst the house is being pulled apart. I'm also aware that I will need a new shower but I'm going to re-do the bathroom next anyway. The above prices were the plumbers "guide only" comments, he's coming back to me with a full quote.

My questions to the masses;

1. Is my logic sound ?
2. Where is a good place to get a combi boiler (I'm in N.I) ?
3. Can I realistically expect to have a combi bought and fitted for max £2k ??

Any thoughts / advice appreciated.

Regards

 

[Best]

One piece of advice you should heed - DON'T consider a combi oil boiler!! They are expensive, complex & trouble in all makes.
If you really don't have a suitable place for a copper cylinder, then an unvented may be suitable if you have enough flow & pressure from the mains pipe. I personally would prefer any hot cylinder NOT to be fitted in an attic for a few reasons, - safety (hot water through ceilings!) & for getting to for servicing & also pipework from boiler to unvented unit distance.
Re your oil boiler - it may be easily fixed up, but a standard eff oil boiler is maximum 85% efficient compared with 93% or more for new condensing oil boiler. Grant Vortex is a good oil boiler IMO.

 

[Killy Bing]

Avoid an oil combi, mainly cons with them.

 

[GST]

Ah pants. I was hoping the cheaper combi way would be the public vote. I don't quite understand the hate towards combi boilers when every online manufacturer site states they are a common and popular method for x1 bathroom properties. But when so many hate them I guess it wise to take heed.

I need an airing cupboard anyway so I guess merely replacing the cylinder and building a nicer cupboard in the bedroom is the way to go.

thanks for the replies.

 

[GST]

Sorry, quick question to you guys as I see you're professionals on this subject.

Any particular make and type of water cylinder I should look for ? I want a thin and tall model, and should I think about going up capacity (space permitting) if can ?

 

[townfanjon]

personally I would go down the unvented route, you can put one in the roofspace if you have room, please read the regs on strengthening joists etc or your installer should know.
If you have a read up on unvented against a vented copper you will go for the unvented. But as Best says dont assume you can just put one in theres a bit of work required first to see if it will work.

 

[GST]

Thanks gents.

plumber no. 2 has just left the house, he is on the gas safe register (I checked) and his advice is as follows:

1. Don't replace your current oil boiler with an oil combi, they're expensive, problematic and he "hasn't fitted one for ages".

2. The loft is very big with good access, get it floored and look to utilise that space. The water pressure is good (tested it with some gizmo).

3. Use an unvented system in the loft and keep the boiler you have, but it will need replaced at some point. I have a large solid wall in the loft for fixing to but will need to consider joist load.

4. Take the renovation opportunity to convert to gas, put the boiler in the loft. Gets rid of all tanks, gets my bedroom back, solves the crappy boiler, and as I'm planning on moving the garage (getting rebuilt at side of house next year) it removes future headaches. He recommended a Worcester (sp) gas combi boiler. Reckons he could do it for c.£2k as only x4 rads upstairs need replaced (plus power flush, thermostat valves, and a remote timer).

Considering I'm looking at £700-£900 to simply replace a cylinder and relocate x4 new rads I'm now thinking gas. Also, there is no charge for Phoenix connecting the house. He's of to the plumbers merchant now to price up properly.

its a tough old game this plumbing caper.

Plumber number 3 is coming on Saturday.

 

[Killy Bing]

Pet hates with oil combis are they tend to leak, awkward to work on and tend to end up costly in the long run.

If you have good water pressure and flow rates i would go with an unvented cylinder.
this could be installed in the garage if you wanted to free up space in the house.

thats if its suitible.

 

[Millsy 82]

If you have no problem with your hot water pressure at the moment then just go for a high recovery vented cylinder. Unvented is good but majority of people are more than satisfied with vented and it will work out cheaper on install.

I would get your boiler looked at again though as from what you've said I don't think your boiler is old is a good enough reason to scrap it at the moment. The oil leak will soon be sorted by a good engineer.

 

[GST]

Millsey, just had a better look at the boiler. It is a Grant 50/90 Euroflame boiler, with service stamps dated 1999 on the side. So it seems to be a reasonably good model according to my googling and at best almost 15 years old. Still working away through these tough winters and parts still available, so perhaps I am jumping the gun.

The situation is being driven by the do I / don't I make the changes whilst renovating to try and save space. I really want rid of the cylinder in the bedroom. So do I spend £1200 sticking an unvented pressure system in the loft and defer replacing the boiler for a year or two, or just convert to gas now and be done with it all for £2.5k.

Quote came back at £2.6k all in ( Worcester gas combi, x4 new and repositioned rads, power flush, installation, extra gizmos).

Think I'm down to pressurised system v gas now.

at least you've all converted me away from oil combi.

cheers for the help.

 

[SimonG]

Sorry, im still laughing at 2k for an oil combi fitted.

If you can use gas why are you even considering oil. Its not lpg is it?

 

[Dotty]

Roughly where in NI are you?

 

[Ermintrude]

Also step away from worst er ****e

 

[albatross]

If you can have mains gas then do it. You also get rid of oil tank.
Could you put unvented cylinder in garage?

 

[GST]

Croppie,

I'm in East Belfast.

 

[GST]

I forgot to add, the pipework in the house is some grey 15mm tubing, so clealry someone had a go at upgrading things over the years. However, a few have told me that 15mm piping isn't sufficent for an unvented system.

So are all signals poiting to gas then ??

 

[SimonG]

If its mains gas then a definite yes.

 

[GST]

Mains gas it is gents, easier and solves the space issues.

X2 plumbers have recommended the Worcester 28 Junior combi boiler for my house.

I've read mixed reveiws on this model, but those comments are dated a couple of years ago, so maybe they've improved the junior since then (such as water temp controls I see are now added) ?

I'm happy to splash an extra few quid (c.£150) if it will get me a better machine.

Any thoughts ?

 

[stevetheplumber]

for a smallish house with just the one bathroom i would go with a decent gas combi

 

[Ermintrude]

Yeh me two on combi providing water is ok. Don't fit worster

 

[GST]

So if Worcester is so bad what shoul dI be looking at.

I need a power output of 24 - 28kw (according to various calculators).

 

[stevetheplumber]

for the diffence in price i would go for a 30kw, now days i would go for what ever has the longest warranty and get it fitted by an approved installer for the make you chose personally i like vaillants

 

[Ermintrude]

Ideal vogue - very nice. Baxi duotec or ideal logic + all excellent all carry 7 years pars and labour FOC. As does valliant