Our plumbers messed up. Help! What would you do?

[Dirty tree]

Hi,
our plumbers installed a John Guest Wet single room 20m2 UFH into our kitchen extension.
Our floor space was 28m2 but they gave us a 20m2 system instead of a 30m2 system. They then installed only one single loop which is around 140m-150m long. Way over recommended length. Long and short is that only 1/3 of our room heats up.
They have admitted they ballsed up.John Guest have confirmed it has not been installed correctly.
We want all £1800 back. They are only offering £600 back.
To avoid us taking them to court they have come up with a "solution" to create two loops out of the one current single loop.
Here is their solution -
Remove all tiles necessary
· Channel 40mmW x 20mmD into the screed to a mid point on the loop.
· Cut into the loop, and connect two extra pipe to run back to the unit.
· Divide at the control unit as you would for the John Guest 30m2.
· House the connection point in a waterproof ply to strengthen the floor
· Re place the tiles.


The floor is 80mm concrete screed and 1200x1200 porcelain tiles with island and kitchen now all fitted and finished. They suggest to smash up the floor all paid for by their insurance.We have had enough of this and simply want our money back and be done with this.They say we are being obstructive for not allowing them to rectify the situation. We say they should have installed correctly the first time.

Our question to you the plumbing industry is this-

1.What are the issues involved in removing tiles, chasing into concrete, removing kitchen units,islands,skirting etc... can they hit or puncture existing pipe work?

2. Is this worth doing or best left alone as disruption and inconvenience will be immense.

( Our opinion is they want to do this because their excess on their insurance to cover these works is prob around £300 and our claim on them to refund all monies is £1800. You do the maths! )

3. What would you do as a customer in this situation?

Many thanks Guys.

 

[oz-plumber]

Hi Dirty Tree,

They have admitted their stuff up and if you have it in writing, I would take them to court.

At least that way you can be living in decent accommodation - at their insurance company's expense - while the repairs are done.

Pretty poor form to stuff up a UFH system of that size.

You won't want to live in a house without a kitchen, concrete dust and basically a building site while the rectifications are being done.

They may have to take all the floor up to do the job properly - insist this with your insurance company.

I would't settle for just you money back.

I would settle for repairs to the system, you paid for, rectification necessary and out of pocket expenses due to not being able to live in the dwelling while the rectifications / repairs are taking place.

Live it up and good luck

 

[Millsy 82]

Get it all redone properly now, I understand that it is a pain in the rear but it is better doing it that way now than in 2-3 years time when yo have to pay for it.

Mistakes do happen that is why we have insurance and I myself wouldnt like to chace the floor out and tag into it I would rather it be completely sorted.

What have john guest recommended was it them that said it only needs cutting into or have they suggested a complete redo?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Whilst I agree with the sentiments expressed by Oz and Millsy, I think you will have a problem if you go to court.

They can argue that you have not given them the chance to rectify it. The judge will not care very much about your feelings and wishes, he will apply the law, which in normal circumstances, should allow them the opportunity to rectify.

The very fact that they have admitted their mistake and are prepared to rectify it at their (or their insurers) cost makes them look like responsible traders.

 

[Chalked]

They have come clean. So I would let them fix it, including all making good.
Cutting the loop and making into two will work as long as the spacing of the pipe work was done correctly.

 

[buckley plumb]

joints in the floor not good

 

[newcastle phill]

Yes as per chalked here. Modifying the loop into 2 should technically work just as well.

id give them a chance, although the problem is inconvenient they appear to be willing to put things right and provide you with what you paid for in the 1st place,

so why is it you feel you need to go to court in light of this ?

If tiles have to be removed there is no reason why they wont go back in if done by a good tiler.

Suppose ultimately it down to how the pipe runs

 

[SimonG]

You need to give them a chance to put it right at their expense.

Obviously though it has to be done to your satisfaction.

 

[Aquazone]

I would also check with JG as if they provide some sort of warranty with the UFH pipe work then it may be invalidated if there are joins in the screed.

I agree thought that they should be allowed to put it right, although as has been mentioned make sure you get in writing what they have done, what they are going to do and why.

 

[Dotty]

Completely agree. You won't have a leg to stand on if you don't give them the opportunity to put right at their expense. However I would suggest you seek advice from a solicitor to draw you up an agreement for the repairs, not only for your sake but for theirs too.

 

[REDSAW]

floors got to come up any way so dont see what the diference is?

may as well let them take a small bit of it up and see if it solves the problem 2 days later!!

wasnt a builder was it?

 

[Ermintrude]

It will probably be a poor solution, the tiles wont go back Down as the were laid. Extra damage and dust. Compression or any coupling in floor not ideal. Pipe probably not laid in correct pattern. Let them have a go with the rider that they have to warrant any defects for 18 months latent or not.

Screed repair won't be any good and will the replace screed with like for like? Nice to see how this pans out, keep us posted.

 

[jase158]

I have to disagree with what has been said, JG Speedfit say on the installation details that "fittings must not be used under the concrete." The problem is that although it will solve the problem it could leak in 5-10 years and JG Speedfit will not guarantee it.
The floor will go back down and the tiles will go back, you won't even notice it after. It's just the inconvenience and the guarantee.
However you mentioned £600, if they are willing to give you £600 as well as fix it then I wouldn't be too bothered!! Get them in to do it!! And in 5-10 years fix the leak if it ever happens!!

 

[Radioman]

The law is clear on this. Full marks to the company for offering to do the right thing and fix it. If they where a ltd co they could just close down and walk away. Even with insurance they will be out of pocket.

 

[Reg Man]

Try to be civil and reasonable, as they have offered the rectify the faulty work. I would be pushing for a proper rectification, even if it requires ripping it all out and re-doing. I would not put up with a quick none compliant fix because its cheaper and easier for them.

 

[pobsdad]

Just wondering why you're happy to keep the faulty heating as long as you get all your money back?

 

[brum]

Just wondering why you're happy to keep the faulty heating as long as you get all your money back?

me too..brum

 

[R.Oak]

I certainly wouldn't take them court straight away, but i certainly wouldn't settle for a bodge. It should be reinstalled, completely. This will mean it works as designed, has full guarantee and ultimately you will have gotten what you paid for.

I know it will be a rough few weeks and is not ideal, but you should push for the company to rectify there problem in the correct way.

 

[Masood]

I agree that they have acted responsibly in admitting their fault and offering to rectify it.

However I would insist that any repair MUST be to manufacturer's spec. I don't know John Guest systems all that well, they may well have an approved repair coupling that is OK to be concealed.

Get the installers to get written confirmation from John Guest that the proposed solution will carry the full manufacturer's guarantee. Wanting all your money back seems to be a bit of opportunistic profiteering to be honest - you get SOME heating, albeit not what was designed, and you get it FOC. Bit unfair!

 

[SimonG]

Uponor do a repair fitting for their underfloor. I would imaging jg do something similar. The uponor is a compression fitting, well its two adaptors for a 15mm comp straight connector.

 

[Ermintrude]

It's not gonna fix the pattern and spacing issues is it?

 

[lame plumber]

Seems to be some confusion here as the world keeps talking insurance, for what, if the company doesnt have correct insurance its a no go, and the courts wont go for it unless the firms been given an option to fix the problem. As for joints etc, a careful dig and repair can sort it, may be and if the joint is left accessible under a kitchen unit there's no issue in the future should it leak. Nothing is insurmountable, and as for taking cash in lieu of repairs, I know where I'd tell the client to put it.

 

[brum]

Why would insurance pay out anyway?? If it was fitted incorrectly its down to the installation company to sort out.
Like said before they have admitted liability give them a chance to sort problem out..brum

 

[plumben]

Give them a chance to sort it out as per MI'S and to your sanitation,
If there going to bury a joint, get it in writing that there fixing there fault in this way and there liable for any future problems
And that everything will be put back/replaced to its original condition that you payed for

 

[MC_Bob]

As long as theres movement around the joint and pipework supplying the repair has movement after the screed has been laid you'll be fine. No one throws a fit about all the pther joints in ceiling, walls or floors.
I dont know what people are getting so high and mighty for. They sound like theyll sort it. If your tiler can't replace tiles hes not a tiler.
Good luck and give them a break.