Party wall and plumbing pipe

[Ramprat]

Hey all need a professional opinion, we live in a mid terrace house, previous neighbour has just moved but she had six dogs and house was disgusting so new owners have had it gutted and its currently being remodelled.

My question is, I know houses when empty echo, but I can currently hear everything going on next door, I'm sat in my office right now and can hear the plumber whistling and rubbing something with sand paper! That's how much sound is now travelling, furthermore for the last few days they have been installing a new kitchen and bathroom and it's sounded like at times they were about to come through the wall!

I warned the new owners the walls were thin, think its single skin (1966 ex raf, when you look at the house from behind there's thee bricks between our windows and inside mine atleast 1 brink between window and wall, so party wall 1 brick thick?) But I'm not sure if they told the trades and I'm starting to get paranoid that they might have come through the wall behind our cabinets and that's why we can here so much noise now? The previous owner although we could hear the dogs we never heard anything else. Also we now have cracking along the grout in our bathroom (not an issue as I'll just redo it) but again worried they might have come through behind the tiles or atleast enough to push on the tiles if that's even possible.



Also last night I could hear what sounded like the water rushing through pipes, possibly a boiler kicking in (house empty at the moment while refit happening and I'm wondering if they might have buried the pipes into the party wall as originally it would have been the same as mine with the central heating pipes stuck on the outside as it was added some years after the houses were built.

Does any of this sound possible/likely, the trades seem professional, no white van men 😄 but they might not be used to the style of house, our own trades have been caught out before by odd structural and utility layouts.

I don't want to cause a fuss for no reason and don't really want to have to approach the owners as although they seem nice I already had to go over last week as the builders were starting drilling and banging at 0700 and weren't stopping until 2000 which was just too early/late and I don't want to be "that" neighbour.

This may sound nuts but we had real issues with the previous neighbour as her dogs would bark almost non stop, council ended up involved with noise breach and all the neighbours were very happy the she went and I'm just worried that after thinking the noise issues were over that they are not.

Thanks

 

[Knappers]

Firstly, I've got a white van (perhaps you've missed your audience with that one).
If they're waking you up at 7 then it's understandable youd be upset but if you've complained on principle then perhaps your being a bit difficult?
If they cause damage then they would be responsible for putting it right.
Go for a walk, have a wine, get some headphones and listen to some music (whatever takes your mind off it) and see what happens/take it as it comes.

 

[WC1]

Anything is possible.
Maybe pop round, say "hi", introduce yourself to the builders, take an interest in what they're doing, go from there.
Have squint through the windows over the weekend when the builders aren't there.
You'll do better than asking some guys on the Internet!

 

[Ric2013]

Agree this really is a communication issue. No harm in mentioning politely that you are concerned you can hear things you previously did not (or did not notice) and are worried they may have severely weakened the party wall and are they aware how thin this is, bearing in mind this could be psychological. To be honest, thin walls will transmit a lot of sound and, having a 4.5" party wall myself I am aware that someone sanding the surface of the wall may sound like they are coming through. If they've chased a 9" brick wall to bury heating pipes, this is unlikely to be deep enough to cause structural issues and they are within their rights. They've probably done that modern thing when people rip out all the fitted cupboards to make the house look bigger and then there's nowhere to store anything and it probably will increase sound transmission but hey, ho: it's their house.

If you express yourself the same way you have in your opening post, I don't think a friendly neighbour will take offence: you aren't accusing anyone, you are just understandably concerned at hearing things going on that you don't know the details of and it's bugging you and possibly making you sensitive to noises you didn't used to hear. A friendly neighbour may well invite you over to have a look at what work is being done and it will set your mind at ease.

Ask the owner would they please come and look at the tiles on your side while you offer teas and biscuits. You may find that, with communication, the other neighbour will be able to explain or show you there is nothing they can possibly have done to have caused this and it may well be (sorry to say it) that is was already like that a month ago and you hadn't noticed. It is amazing how unobservant we can be (myself included) and then suddenly notice something that has been there for months.

To be honest, I annoyed my neighbour once by a week of DIY that ended regularly after 8 in the evening: he came over at 7 one night and said it was getting a bit much and I said fair enough I'll call it a day. And we could have remained friends. No idea why he didn't mention it before getting annoyed - we'd had tea together and broken the ice, so it shouldn't have been a problem.

Instead, I then got a rant about how he wanted peace and quiet after 6, to which I thought fair enough (as I do a lot of DIY - it's not something that I only do occasionally). But he ended by saying next time he'd call the council and make a noise complaint. Since then, his wife has shouted (with the intention of my hearing) of how she wished I'd SHUT UP!!! and this was at ten to 6, so if they want anything else (although I keep to the 6 o'clock request), they can jolly well call the council. (As we both live in 150-year-old houses that need maintenance - they rent so I had 9 months of it when the house was last empty, whereas I own so it's odds and ends as an ongoing process).

Plus throwing all their (or was it all parties' leaflets except theirs?) party political leaflets on the pavement outside their house throughout the 2019 General Election has made me think they are both slightly unhinged. Since then I've limited contact to good morning if I see them and signing for their post if the postman asks me to. Are you "that" neighbour? I don't think so at all, but have a chat before this gets you pis*ed off and, if in doubt, go on Mumsnet and ask "am I being unreasonable?".

 

[Ramprat]

Thanks all,

Firstly, I've got a white van (perhaps you've missed your audience with that one).
If they're waking you up at 7 then it's understandable youd be upset but if you've complained on principle then perhaps your being a bit difficult?

Ha sorry about that no offence intended, to be fair most of the trades I've used in the past had plain white vans now that I think about it 🤣, unfortunately so did the traveler who told me he was a professional tree surgeon and killed my very mature, large and productive cherry tree which put me in the dog house with the misses for months 🤣

They were unfortunately waking me up as I tend to work late and get up late but I only complained when it was happening on the weekend which I think is fair and they have stopped since which is why I didn't want to go over again if I was just being paranoid or not understanding the actually of how the work would be being done.

Anything is possible.
Maybe pop round, say "hi", introduce yourself to the builders, take an interest in what they're doing, go from there.
Have squint through the windows over the weekend when the builders aren't there.
You'll do better than asking some guys on the Internet!

I was thinking of popping round for a look as it would be interesting to see the house stripped back for my own future reference as the houses are ex RAF and don't seem to follow the standard building practices of the time but 1) I didn't want to disturb them for no reason 2) I'm unfortunately shielding at the moment so didn't really want to go into a house full of people but I might try and catch someone as they pop in and out and ask, I just wanted to get an expert opinion before I even approached the subject in case it was ridiculous. 😆

Agree this really is a communication issue. No harm in mentioning politely that you are concerned you can hear things you previously did not (or did not notice) and are worried they may have severely weakened the party wall and are they aware how thin this is, bearing in mind this could be psychological. To be honest, thin walls will transmit a lot of sound and, having a 4.5" party wall myself I am aware that someone sanding the surface of the wall may sound like they are coming through.

I've only meet them on passing so next time they pop down to check on progress I might have a quick word but to be honest from what you've said it sounds like it's just noise travel from the thin walls especially with I suspect a lot of the work taking place against the party wall.

With the tiles it wasn't so much if they caused the crack id want them to repair, grouting I'll do myself in a few hours but was it a symptom of further damage there or elsewhere but again I think its possibly me being paranoid, we kept finding issues over the first few years we lived here and spent a lot of time and money putting it right with no issues since and probably just freaked out at the thought of further issues being caused.

Also can anyone tell me from what they know about how pipework is done if they have chased pipework into the wall and it's only a single skin am I likely to start hearing the water flow/banging or have other issues, if it was your house would you be worried or not as if not I'll forget about it as its not so much the building noise as I know they need to do the work and happy with that now they keep it quiet first thing it was more the fact it seemed overly load like they were in the same room almost like surround sound almost 😆 and had me concerned about what was being done to or inside the wall.

Finally should i in future need to put shelves up etc on the same wall do I have to worry about going into the pipes if it is a single skin? Would competent plumbers know how deep they could put them from looking at the wall/house or in reality are they usually put very shallow as standard practice anyway? Worst case would I pick them up with a pipe finder or again am I over thinking the issue 😄

Thanks once again

 

[Knappers]

I nearly went across the road the other week because the builders started a digger at 7:50 on a sunday (and woke me up) so I feel your pain.

A standard brick is 4" and pipes chased in walls will be 1/2" max. I think the max vertical chase is 1" deep so in theory you should be able to pepper your wall with 3" screws without issue

 

[Ric2013]

Finally should i in future need to put shelves up etc on the same wall do I have to worry about going into the pipes if it is a single skin? Would competent plumbers know how deep they could put them from looking at the wall/house or in reality are they usually put very shallow as standard practice anyway?

I wouldn't rely on pipe finders as a definite measure. Good to have, but not 100% reliable. But no one should be chasing more than half the thickness of the wall for pipes (I think the structural recommendation is max 1/3?). I'd suggest you keep any screws into 'your' half of the wall, but a 2" portion of screw into masonry is already as solid as you will ever need.

Realistically, as others have said, it's unlikely that more than 0.5" of the bricks will have been removed for a chase. Water running in pipes is not generally noisy.