questions from supposed plumbers

[newbie1]

have started to notice a lot of questions from people working as plumbers but with a shocking lack of knowledge of basics
its a bit alarming that people out there are charging money and claiming to be a plumber who dont seem to know the basics??

 

[Jason.S]

Have to say i agree there.

Its similar right across the trades though.

Mind you, i'd rather people ask questions, than thinking they know or guess.

 

[migoplumber]

on the plus side, you get called to go back and put it right......
tho you cant bring back dead people...

still at least here they can ask questions and are generally pointed in the right direction or told to leave well alone

there are some shocking questions!

shaun

 

[emergencyman]

I agree, having read some of the latest questions from people who claim to be plumbers.

No doubt these are the same "plumbers" who quote £200 to fit a bathroom suite so when I drive to the other side of Leeds in the rush hour to give a quote I get laughed at. No doubt working for the same customers who want a written quote at my expense for the insurance then never ring me back ( found someone cheaper)

I`m all for offering help and advice but not aiding and abetting bodgers.

 

[newbie1]

my son has been to two jobs lately told them problem given the price and never heard again prob start charging for diagnos costs and refund if job secured

 

[rob1100]

I guess that one was probably directed at me.

Im not a plumber...the shame!

Listen, I do trades work on a small scale and all of my business is repeat...I never tackle anything Im unsure of and always attempt to learn about a problem before deciding to have a go or not.

Im sorry I know you all probably despise guys like me but Im only asking for some general advice on things that interest me.

 

[Puddle]

In this economic climate you are going to find more people trying to do things themselves or different trades trying to cover jobs they shouldn’t
Painters, joiners ect find themselves in a property with two days work, whereas before they would want to be finished and out asap now they may not have any other work that week or longer, so when Mrs. smith says, oh my over flow is leaking or I need a new tap, they think, extra day,1/2 days work have a go, trouble is with all this push fit and flexible wastes its easy to have a go and usually works for awhile
For ages now I have been saying only a matter of time before I come across push fit plastic pipe and fittings on gas and sure enough two weeks ago I did, funny enough there were also pics in this months gas safe mag
Anyway, the posts you get here are only a sample of whets happening across the country and it is going to get worse, I get paid well when I get called out to sort it out but as migo plumber says you can not get paid to bring someone back to life from exploding unvented hot water cylinders capped off and attached directly to the mains
However it is good for people to have a media such as this
I wish I had a place like this to go when I first started out , I was time served with people around me who know what they were doing(I know ,pity it did not rub off 🙂)and when I went on my own I could pop round and ask advise if needed
And as said at least people on here are asking the questions, does it make you cleverer not asking and not knowing but keeping your street cred
last week went to a pressurized cylinder with no hot water, found return pipework from cylinder looped through towel rail then back to boiler so when you turned towel rail off no circulation . None of the controls on the cylinder were wired up (cylinder thermostat or high limit)power from clock to motorized valve and boiler been like that for 5 years ,tenanted, how many more out there has this joker installed, if only he had asked question here 🙄

 

[newbie1]

its frightening to think that people will make do with gas and hope for the best and until a few more prosecutions take place
no one likes dropping people in it but maybe a few riddors will make people think

 

[Puddle]

its frightening to think that people will make do with gas and hope for the best and until a few more prosecutions take place
no one likes dropping people in it but maybe a few riddors will make people think

Well through my letter box today popped a 6th edition copy of the 'gas industry unsafe situations procedure'book, from Gas Safe, listing all the riddors reportable situations, so maybe they are thinking the same
The trouble is, if it’s all corrected, it’s such a chucuffle, meet me on site here, fill a report in there
I think you should get nectar points or marks and sparks vouchers to make it worth while and give an incentive 😀

 

[REDSAW]

thank god you bought up that newbie,
all week i have been thinking someones on a wind-up with all those basic questions on plumbing, where to buy stock, how much to charge etc, thought i'd missed it / over my head.

in fact i wont bother replying to what i deem fishing questions anymore, as i have just worked out tht they are fresh out of fast-track school and still trying to get there quick without doin the 'knowlege'.
sod em.

 

[NickH]

Having been chastised for pointing out the ridiculuos questions that some people, who are clearly undertaking plumbing work, ask, I have to agree with you.
Fair enough if a DIYer needs advice or guidance, or a profesional tradesman needs help with something they haven't come across before, but when you have suppossed pro's asking the most basic question, like why does the water stop coming out of my taps when I turn the mains off, or why cant I connect my hot cylinder to the cold mains, come on please.
I really believe that encouraging such people to continue "trying" is dangerous and they need to be made aware of their extremely limited capability's.
I've noticed that a lot of knowledgable and experienced guys have stopped posting on this forum, to the detriment of people looking for answers to difficult problems, often being replaced by people who offer advice which is questionable to say the least.
Like RED said, sod em.

 

[jonathanb]

Well put Nick & Red...

 

[secret squirrel]

As a newly qualified plumber, who has done a fast track course, I read a lot of information on this forum. All sorts, from simple jobs to complicated jobs, including problems that send shivers down my spine! (the reason I did a fast track course, it was the only option open to me, I needed a proper trade to emigrate, apprenticeship was no use to me because of my age etc and I received no government help)

I appreciate everything that you have all said on this thread, I have already come across poor work and have given reasonable quotes, not to hear anything back. This is really frustrating but I suppose a part of plumbing life. A lot of the work I have picked up is work that the house holder has had a go at and messed up.

Whilst I have completed a job, I am often asked about a boiler, I DO NOT touch boilers; I am not qualified, I don't understand them and well out of my comfort zone. What does surprise me, is that I can go into B & Q buy a boiler and fit it (NOT THAT I WOULD). I know you should be Gas Safe but I'm sure a lot of DIY'ers don't get the work commissioned properly.

I have also been asked how I would do a job, explained the procedure to a customer and given them the price only to be called back to the job when the customer cocked it up, having had a go themselves. Now, I'm very cagey about what I say.

On a final note, when I have posted a question, I appreciate all the replys I get. For example, I was unaware that coffin tanks were available. I knew how to join two tanks together but was pointed in the right direction regarding the overflow. This was the aspect I would have made a mistake on.

I am torn, as stated I appreciate your comments on this thread and do agree BUT I appreciate all the comments made by experienced plumbers and the answers you give. So I hope you will all continue to help but perhaps filter what you answer.

 

[dontknowitall]

I tend to agree with all the posts on here and like you, Secret Squirrel, am quite new to the trade.

One reason I became a plumber is when I wanted one 2-3 years back to fit a radiator, first fix for a shower and a basin, it took 18 phone calls to plumbers and two responses from them. The one I picked didn't fix the radiator to the wall properly, failed to make the pipes straight in the first fix for the shower and left the basin without soldering the joints to it. I ended up finishing it all up having happily (NOT!) paid him £440 for the labour.

Last night I went to change a cheap kitchen tap. The old one is leaking above the sink level. I couldn't change it without removing the whole sink and suggested to the customer she waited until changing her kitchen in a few months time. I didn't charge for my 1 1/2 hours attendance. The customer said the previous plumber had tightened the nuts underneath the sink and charged. These wouldn't have been the cause of the leak above the sink but he still charged. And I'm not convinced he could have tightened them in any case because it was impossible to get a spanner or wrench or jaw dropper in there!

That customer has already recommended me to someone else who I'll see next week and is likely to call me to help her mother soon. She also said she would recommend me again.

There are good and bad in time served and fast track plumbers.

More importantly though, I like to think that the majority of time served and fast track plumbers are conscientious and care for their customers. The time served, having established their businesses can pick and choose their jobs and will probably leave the loos and leaking taps alone to us new minions who are only too grateful for some work.

As for giving advice on this forum, I try to help others but know my limitations and when I am unsure I ask that others try and post some help either to confirm I'm right or to correct things I've said that are wrong. If I feel the person asking the question is a "cowboy" plumber I ignore the thread. The language used and lack of jargon often gives away the DIY'er and it's these people I try to help.

Finally, I don't try to pretend I know everything and this last year or so has been one heck of a learning curve for me. It's one thing to know the water regs and how to solder, but it's quite another when you're in a customer's house. I do shy away from some jobs. I did Part P on my course, but I called an electrician in wire up a shower a few weeks ago. And next week, it's the electrician again to do another electric shower.

Like Secret Squirrel, I also hope people will continue to post helpful comments as not everyone can know everything. Who knows, despite having the qualifications, I might even learn how the electrics work one day so I feel confident enough to fit a shower myself.

Now, was blue live or neutral? Or was it pink?

 

[jonathanb]

I repair everything from leaking taps, cleaning out saniflows,guttering, to boilers,it's all gravy and part of the job, especially in these economically challenged times - I wouldn't bother at the mo unless well established or with a good outfit as thing are getting worse with things getting tighter and the big boys starting to go bankrupt.
There will be fast trackers with savvy who will work hard,get their head in the books and probably be decent given a bit of time and not taking on more than they can handle, there will be far more who don't however and fall into the chancers catogory. Unfortunately no one seems to be doing min of 5 years "time" any more and having the carp money that goes with it. All the young un's do level 2 at the most and try rush their gas. Slow down people, serve your time with a good outfit/old timer and it will all fall in place..Then you might get some decent answers and respect from some of the more experienced of us.

Oh - and the trade might finally have some skilled tradesmen coming through finally!

 

[WaterTight]

sounds great

but unfortunately there are so, so few good outfits / old timers taking on apprentices /traineers at the moment as to render the search for them close to pointless

the ones that are taking on people have such the pick of the litter given the climate that naturally they'll take on ones with lots of experience

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Interesting mail.

But lets consider some thing's first?

First off you won't stop people from having a go themselves that is fairly obvious and a fact we should all wake up too perhaps. After all people should not break the speed limit on the roads, but how many do, even though they know what the limit is.

The thing is "How many more would break the limit if nobody knew what it was?"

The thing is: How do people find out what is involved in Plumbing before they start?

Most just think its easy and have a go and then find out they can't do it.

It would be far better for all concerned to publish things like British Standards as a public service.

Then at least people would know what kind of a job they where taking on before they tried to do it. Lets be honest though, BS cost as much as getting a firm in to do the job, although some people can access them through their local library for free, most people perhaps don't even know what they are.

At least if they know before they start what is involved, and then make a mess of it, they at least know they should never have started to do it in the first place, which may deter them from doing it again until they do know.

And lets be honest the big DIY sheds are not going to stop selling anything they can to anybody and in my view neither should they.

People should be free to access all the knowledge they require to do any job for free.

The alternative is to let them do the jobs without knowing and that is perhaps even worse.

I don't fancy my neighbour putting in a second hand unvented system without the installation manual and not knowing it requires safety controls, because they had no cash to buy the BS installation requirements or even knew they needed any.

Its better to let them know, not charge what you like just to tell them.

If we are going down the route of restricting information then we must bare in mind the boiler manufacturers may restrict information about their boilers and make everybody go to them to have one installed and serviced. That would probably put thousands on the dole, raise the price and encourage not perhaps prevent, more unknowing people with little money having a go themselves.

And nobody wants to restrict getting jobs done to just the few who can afford to pay a company to do their work. The reason people usually have a go themselves is because they can't afford a company to do it.

Lets be honest, if you thought somebody would clear the bog for a £5 instead of £100 what would you do? Sure call the company in! So its probably reasons of price most people DIY, not to do others out of work. So they should be free like everybody else to learn how to do it properly.

 

[Puddle]

Hmm!


It would be far better for all concerned to publish things like British Standards as a public service.

Could not agree more,they should all be listed on a web site for all to see,
it would benifit all

 

[jonathanb]

Fair play about BS - think you can view free from some local authority libaries at the mo? Not got a prob with DIYrs doing a bit of basic plumbing on their own homes to save a bob or two especially with the recession, and giving a bit of friendly advice, equally for the young ones coming through who ask sensible questions.
If people are doing plumbing as a business though, they should really know the score before parading as professionals, its not a given right to become any tradesman with a bit of night school, you actually have to learn hands on from the experience of others also. So, at the mo it might be a bad time to embark on a plumbing career as most established guys/businesses are keeping overheads down at present and reluctant to take any one on which is understandable. Plumbing,unlike what the clowns runing the country may make you believe, is not a recession proof easy money maker, its bloody hard work and takes many years to be good at it. How about training to fix cars for 6 weeks and then opening a garage and calling yourself a mechanic - I wouldn't be too happy if my car went there!

 

[secret squirrel]

Bernie, really enjoyed your reply and agree with you.

Just want to come back to Jonathanb, thanks for acknowledging that some fast track plumbers will be good given time and not taking on more than they can chew! 100% agree with you.

I think looking from the outside point of view, plumbing is easy! all you have to do is connect pipes and the water flows......

THIS is obviously not the case, there is a great deal of skill, knowledge, fault finding abilities, people skills etc that come into the picture.

Before a change of career (emigration reasons, I need to be a plumber for the points) I ran my own successful driving school, everyone thinks sitting in a car teaching is a soft touch until you start to do it! approx 35% of people pass all three exams, driving instructors has one of the highest drop out rates for any industry.....

My point is Plumbing is difficult, that is why we charge a fair wage, insurance, advertising, accounts, etc, these costs all come into it. Those "fast track" plumbers who think this is easy money will fall by the wayside, along with "fast track" & "time served" who think running a business is easy.(no holiday/sick pay etc.)

Personally, I would like to work with an experienced plumber and would have no problem being told what to do, making tea and cleaning the sealant off of the bath but genuinely, I can't do this for £50 a week.

So, I appreciate the answers I get here. Do I deserve the respect of more experienced plumbers, I think so. Even if it is just as a professional courtesy.

 

[Bernie2]

Yes agree Puddle they should all be on one easy accessible site with Bldg Regs the lot.

Its nearly impossible to find any real info out without having to spend hours and hours looking for it.

If Google can give free access to their search engines and make a fortune doing it, why can't the likes of BS and the other UK authorities do it as well?

As to working and getting a living from Plumbing, I fully agree, you should know what your doing before you charge for something, the existing law already tells you that.

What most semi professional DIY's don't know, is that they can probably wind up in clink for miss selling if they get it wrong.
Its only when you follow the likes of Building Regs, manufacturers instructions and British Standards that you have a get out of jail for free ticket and even then you have got to prove you followed them.

So the laws are there already to be followed its just free access to all of them that we need.

 

[mickwhiteside@t]

I appreciate all that people are saying here, however, I served a 4 year apprenticeship 32 years ago spent a good time in the plumbing world before going in to other areas - such as air conditioning - Therefore, I have no doubt lost a lot of the skills I had - certainly the lead work. This year one of my sons turned 17 and looked to all the established companies in the local area to get an apprenticeship. Nobody is taking on, so while you are all having a go at the fast trackers etc, consider if you are helping the trade by taking on the young up and coming plumber to train correctly the same as many of you were trained by a journeyman. I have now decided to start up my own plumbing business to give him a start in life and a proper apprenticeship, I don't want to start a business in this climate, but the young need a chance or they along with those put out of work, will just go out and find the work without the correct advice. At least those on a fast track course have had the wherewithal to do something for themselves and long may they come to sites like this to seek advise.

 

[nzmanc]

Im doing the fast track course and if you can twin this with real hands on experience then you'll get there. I picked up a load of cards from a merchants and called them all offering my services and got lucky. Learning shed loads now but im lucky with circumstance. ive got some gardening leave and so can work for free. My guy is of the opinion that u need to give guys like us a chance otherwise we stand no chance and thats what im doing.

 

[Bernie2]

The real underlying problem is, I suppose, not really fast tracking.

Its keeping costs down. The Plumbing industry like any other industy is governed by market forces. Most of the companies I have worked for over the years usually had one or two big customers who gave them perhaps 90% of their work. In return the big customer wants things cheap. That means there is little slack in the prices for training.

The men have got to be up firing on all cylinders from day one.

Not only that, if the men are paid on gang bonus then they don't want a slow worker in the team. Nor do the companies.

No its not right I agree, but unfortunately it seems to be the way it is.

We should go back to the old system of training grants for companies and free access for all, to courses.

 

[mickwhiteside@t]

Bernie I agree it is not really fast tracking, that is the problem, it is that the old and bald of the Profession, who have their own companies and are self employed, are not prepared to give others, be they young or inexperienced, the chance, as they were given and was the practice of their forebears. Hence the cowboy will find a way to come in and take over. Sad but I'm afraid true, like it or not, if there is a need for plumbers either they are trained properly or the customer will find somebody who can do it.