Quoting for gas installation pipe renewal

[rf1]

Hi, I’m new to the forum, GSRd, and would appreciate any views on the following.
When quoting for boiler replacements, I routinely include for upgrading the existing installation pipe if I get a measured working pressure drop from meter to existing boiler greater than 1mb (on the basis the new boiler will have the same or greater heat input than the existing one) or if pipe sizing calcs for the new boiler and any other existing appliances indicate the existing installation pipe work is likely to be of insufficient size to achieve the required gas rate with a max 1mb drop regardless of whether the existing pipe will actually provide the required minimum inlet pressure specified by the replacement boiler MIs.
Unfortunately, I am often told by the potential customer in these circumstances (particularly where the existing boiler inlet pipe work is22mm) that no one else has mentioned replacing the gas pipe and as a result that’s usually the last I hear of the job.
I believe I am taking the correct approach ( although unfortunately obviously not a winning one ) when quoting for this work, whereby even if the replacement boiler install is in line with MIs as far as inlet pressure, gas rate, fga is concerned, if the pressure drop across the existing installation pipe work from meter to the new boiler inlet is greater than 1mbar then it doesn’t comply with the regs and I would then be responsible for upgrading the existing installation pipework despite the fact the boiler installation itself is actually in line with the MIs.
It appears that the other approach is to install the new boiler on to the existing installation pipe and as long as the boiler installation meets the requirements of the MIs with WP at the meter within acceptable limits, then the work carried out to install the boiler satisfies the requirements of the regs and presumably the existing installation pipe work is then left as an NCS situation due to the pressure loss across it being greater than 1mb but not affecting safe operation of any appliances. Don’t know how GSR view this?
Any experienced views on the matter would be much appreciated.

 

[Roger Welton]

You are correct, if substandard it needs upgrading.

 

[AWheating]

If the new boiler is fitted to substandard pipework then it can not be classed as ncs as its a new installation.

without doning cals and if its a combi/system boiler is likely to be 28KW and need some 28mm pipework if more than 2 rooms away from the meter or 22mm straght from the meter with no other apliances connected.

The problem you face is there are to many people fitting appliances on udersized supplies without a care about it. The engineer wanting to do the job correctly can look like he/she is pushing extra un-needed work.

the question is what could be done to make thoses that dont do??

random gas safe checks? who pays?

a test nipple on appliance gas isolators would help to a certain degree as it would take away the poor engineers excuse of the drop inside the appliance and give every engineer the method of testing correctly. Manufacturers have made this situation themselves to some degree.

 

[nickelarsed]

I'm not gsr, I sub out any gas work to gsr's that I know. I have seen this problem too. They all seem to be taking the attitude that the MI's state it's ok with an certain inlet pressure so it's ok, when I questioned one of them in this he claimed that testing on the appliance you got low readings because it's close to the burner. Another one was adamant that the 1 mb drop was on standing pressure not working pressure. Like I said I';m not gsr and I've found one who I think is good to take on my gas (neither of the previous two) and am kind of giving up the idea of becoming gas safe since I'm quite happy doing what I'm doing to be honest. But I would be interested if any one would tell me what they think of the explanations I got

 

[rf1]

Pushing for extra work is exactly the way it’s seen when everyone else is saying the existing pipe will be ok and not helped of course after the event when the other guy has done the install and the new boiler appears to the customer to work fine without having replaced the pipe. I wonder how many new installs actually comply with the requirement for maximum 1mbdrop!

 

[smtplumbing]

been there got the t shirt been to one that needed 28mm installed that never went down got called a cowboy etc ripp off

 

[AWheating]

I'm not gsr, I sub out any gas work to gsr's that I know. I have seen this problem too. They all seem to be taking the attitude that the MI's state it's ok with an certain inlet pressure so it's ok, when I questioned one of them in this he claimed that testing on the appliance you got low readings because it's close to the burner. Another one was adamant that the 1 mb drop was on standing pressure not working pressure. Like I said I';m not gsr and I've found one who I think is good to take on my gas (neither of the previous two) and am kind of giving up the idea of becoming gas safe since I'm quite happy doing what I'm doing to be honest. But I would be interested if any one would tell me what they think of the explanations I got

the 1mb drop is working pressure, anybody telling you its standing pressure is not worth paying but probably has more work than me

many current boilers have smaller internal pipework and even filters between the gas isolating valve to the gas valve, this means when you test the inlet pressure at the gas valve it can be 1.5mb less than the pressure at the isolation valve. (1.5mb is what many manufactures state but not all so MI must be followed)

so you can have a min of 19mb working pressure at the meter, a 1mb drop to the gas isolation valve and then 1.5mb drop to the gas valve giving a min working pressure of some appliances of 16.5mb.

some engineers use this figure as an excuse for poor installation pipework. I have only come across one boiler that has given me a 1.5mb drop which was a vaillant with 15mm gas pipework (boiler internals) with 28mm pipework from a meter only 2m away. Most boilers i have fitted i dont find mush of a drop if any. Maybe im lucky??

the only real way of knowing whats causing a drop is to have test point at the connection point of the isolation valve. Most manufacturers have not done this so unless you fit one yourself you have no real way of testing and proving your pipework.
this is expensive to do and looks ugly.

the truth is the majority of old combis have been fitted on undersized pipework, many times you do a boiler change and the new boiler is the same or higher heat input than the old one. So most of the time you will need to look at upgrading the pipework.


maybe its time that it was made law that manufacturers need to fit a test point thats suitable for proving the installation is correct. Or some valve manufactures need to come out with a good looking small fitting which has a test nipple, ie a compression couple with a test nipple in the middle.

 

[nickelarsed]

Thanks for the reply Awheating, pretty much confirmed what I thought. I'm in lots of big shared houses (student ones mostly) at the moment doing non gas maintenance etc and have seen a few brand new big combis which are clearly on old pipework. And although I don't test it since i'm not gsr and I wouldn't be thanked for making a fuss there is no way the sizing looks right. So yea seems lots of guys are ignoring that reg but keeping busy. I find it annoying and I'm not even competing for that work.

 

[kozak1968]

SGN will not run a boiler in chimney sweep mode (full rate) they will only turn a hot tap on and as long as the minimum working pressure is achieved then they will not do anything about it. Its a problem if you are commissioning an appliance to the MI

 

[rf1]

Yes the real problem of course is that even if a suitable valve was available to test inlet pressure, the other guy is still there telling the customer they can do the boiler changeover without the upheaval and cost associated with running new gas pipework as long as he gets the minimum inlet pressure at the boiler regardless of the pressure drop across the pipework.

 

[AWheating]

what choice do you have tho? advise the customer and do the work correctly or do as the others and ignore the regs for your gain.

dont think the problems easily solved, maybe you/we need to rethink the way we discuss it with the customer? maybe gas safe should have some sort of campain or if we had some gas safe certified literature that can be left with the customer or linked online? but why would gas safe care or want to involve itself?

the other root problem is alot of customers think tradesmen are looking to rip them off, especially plumbers. Tv programes have helped push this image onto alot of people.

 

[Roger Welton]

I try to explain to the cust that without the gas line done to standard they are wasting there cash having high capacity combi fitted as it won't be able to flow the gas in order to give the Hw flow rates the boiler would otherwise be capable of.

 

[smtplumbing]

is there no leaflets out that we can give to our customer of show them some regs,

No matter what i allways upgrade the gas, some have moaned but have still went for me doing it and i have also lost job but it happens

 

[Keefy]

I'm wondering if some GSR's might be afraid of losing out on the job if they bring this boiler pipe-sizing issue up with the customer. We've all heard customers moan 'the other engineer didn't mention anything about the pipes, I'd rather get him back in because he's not going to rip my cupboards out to fit new pipe like you'.

If one GSR says it needs pipe alterations and another says it doesn't then the customer is going to go down the cheaper and less disruptive route. It can be hard for an engineer to explain to a customer the importance of pipe-sizing without sounding very technical and - no fault of their own, completely baffling them. Maybe it is about time GS put together some consumer-friendly literature for these types of situations which removes the solicitor type text were used to seeing in the regs?

 

[woodsy]

Unfortunatley its the workplace we now live in. The pipe size issue should not be ignored but i guarantee you will lose most jobs because of it, and i like you have have expierienced the 'glazed' over look from customers when i have tried to explain to them that there is no point buying a ferrari and then supplying it with a mini engine.
I like everybody else above have always previously priced for decent quality boilers, pipework corrrect, system clean, filter etc but will not get 1 in 10 jobs. Now will fit any boiler customer really wants and offer system clean & filter as an optional cost as having high morals doesn't pay the mortgage, and if they won't take my professional advice then more fool them. I also realise that i am helping to dumb down the profession but family economics overide it now.

 

[jase158]

just a lil spanner in the works but couldnt you quote for a smaller boiler? they wont get enough heat but wont have to change pipes, lol. that way everyones a winner (except the customer freezing cold on long cold winter nights!! lol

 

[Reg Man]

If you install a new appliance, then the installation should comply with the current regulations. So if the gas pipe requires upgrading then this should be carried out as part of the new installation. Anyone that does or thinks different is not doing the work properly.

 

[TBServices]

If you install a new appliance, then the installation should comply with the current regulations. So if the gas pipe requires upgrading then this should be carried out as part of the new installation. Anyone that does or thinks different is not doing the work properly.

That's the point though regman, loads of people do it but no one ever gets pulled, so it will continue. Unfortunately this means the minority will lose out to the majority, who don't care about pipe sizing.

 

[Reg Man]

That's the point though regman, loads of people do it but no one ever gets pulled, so it will continue. Unfortunately this means the minority will lose out to the majority, who don't care about pipe sizing.

Year I know. but I live an idealistic world. Just think that there is no excuse for doing a job badly.

 

[lame plumber]

just keep your standards up and youll keep customers in the end, as I pointed out to a custard pm today, I'm not cheap, but I am the guy to have cured 2 gas leaks youve had for 2 years despite your original installer putting the system in and returning to service the boiler last week and not popping back as promised to find where the leak is!! And now I have another boiler service on my books next yr and a couple who will put me fwd to other custards. Despite charging more than most round my way!

 

[Reg Man]

just keep your standards up and youll keep customers in the end, as I pointed out to a custard pm today, I'm not cheap, but I am the guy to have cured 2 gas leaks youve had for 2 years despite your original installer putting the system in and returning to service the boiler last week and not popping back as promised to find where the leak is!! And now I have another boiler service on my books next yr and a couple who will put me fwd to other custards. Despite charging more than most round my way!

Professional approach:smiley2:

 

[jase158]

oh and the other side of it is that these people cutting shortcuts will cut more and more shortcuts to do the job quicker and will end up in prison or dead

 

[Keefy]

oh and the other side of it is that these people cutting shortcuts will cut more and more shortcuts to do the job quicker and will end up in prison or dead

Which is why it's good to be an utter jobsworth when it comes to gas.

Like I was told by my gas tutor when someone asked why we needed to get 100%; "If you were about to have a life-saving operation, would you choose the surgeon who got 99% in his exams or the one who got 100%?"