Self cleaning drain smell unblocking

[cluelessDIYguy]

Hello

My upstairs shower drain is smelling absolutely rotten, water is draining a little slower than normal. I’m 99% sure it’s my gf’s hair (had this issue in the past).

The waste is a Crosswater self cleaning vortex style one (think it’s made by Wirquin) to go with the shower tray. It blocked in the past and we took down the plasterboard in the room below to access it, there was no runoff and water was actually trying to run back towards the shower along with several unecessary elbows. I got a local plumber to fix it, and he changed up the pipe work and it’s been great for the last 18 months.
Now as above it’s smelling foul, I can actually smell it in the room below (I have the plasterboard down). I will have no problem fixing it this time because I have access but I need a solution for future. I have ordered some eco unblocker to try hopefully tomorrowbut I don’t have much faith going by other online reviews.

I would really like to avoid having a service hatch in the room below, same with harsh chemicals because I have a septic tank. I can’t keep taking the plasterboard down either.

we did have a different waste fitted briefly which looked awful in the tray and didn’t really work (found out later this was because of the water flowing back towards the shower).


Is there any way or technique of snaking these self cleaning wastes from the shower room? or a tool that could be recommended? I’ve tried manual drain snakes and plastic barbed things but they really struggle to work through the waste.

I also believe my plumber who did the installation should have laid the stone tray on top of marine ply, but chose not to.

Any advice is greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

[Roy_66]

Hi DIY guy,

I'll leave it to the experts here to suggest best simple solutions to this tricky problem.

Drains I think will always tend to block if you can't put bleach down once a week so you need access to traps. I think there probably is a solution you can access from above. Washing you hair with conditioner will I'm told make it worse, and the more you wash your hair the more conditioning it might need.

If the above fails then I'm wondering about if you could have a dummy light fitting or something similar below e.g. large boss for light fitting, to hide the access. No 240 electrics etc. in that of course.

For the ply what does it say in the tray instructions? Presumably you wouldn't want the tray higher, and personally I would not cut into the joists.

Cheers,

Roy (a very amateur plumber)

 

[rpm]

Looking at the photo is the first elbow connected to the trap a push-fit type, if so then I would buy a cheap wet-vac then disconnect that joint, connect the vac to the pipe to the drains with gaffa tape and let it run for awhile whilst having a cuppa. If anything else such as a basin is connected to the pipe then use wet cloths on plug holes and overflow holes to give the vac a good suction.

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

Hi DIY guy,

I'll leave it to the experts here to suggest best simple solutions to this tricky problem.

Drains I think will always tend to block if you can't put bleach down once a week so you need access to traps. I think there probably is a solution you can access from above. Washing you hair with conditioner will I'm told make it worse, and the more you wash your hair the more conditioning it might need.

If the above fails then I'm wondering about if you could have a dummy light fitting or something similar below e.g. large boss for light fitting, to hide the access. No 240 electrics etc. in that of course.

For the ply what does it say in the tray instructions? Presumably you wouldn't want the tray higher, and personally I would not cut into the joists.

Cheers,

Roy (a very amateur plumber)

The plumber did cut into the joists, the shower room was supposed to have the tray level access with the tiles but it ended up being recessed maybe 20mm when the job was completed so there’s a slight step down into the tray. The tray instructions say it should be sat in marine ply.

I questioned the tray not being level access when I got home and saw the completed job, he said it was done as a favour to me because I’m so tall and it gained me some height. I was ok with it. I was away with work for 2 weeks when the majority of the fit was getting done.

I am not a plumber by any means, but a question I have - would it not have made more sense to have my waste drain outlet angled 45 degrees or so to the left to give it a straighter run?

The ceilings are low so 4x GU10 downlights is pretty much what I’m limited to, part of the reason I really want to avoid putting a service hatch in.


Thanks rpm, I can easily disconnect and remove this time but Ill need to patch the ceiling up eventually meaning I’ll only be able to access from up top on the waste inlet On the actual tray.
The waste has been great, I just wish I could find a way of cleaning/snaking from the tray?

I had a suggestion from a friend of an in-line trap(?) with the silicon membrane in to stop smells coming back through, but I’m pretty sure the hair accumulates straight after the waste and I’ll just have the same problem.

 

[rpm]

Thinking that your friend is referring to a non return valve there, known to many as a fanny valve which would fail in time.

 

[Ric2013]

The main issues here seem to be smell and blockage.

A waste trap should prevent smells from the pipework coming up into the room. Is the trap faulty, or are there pipework issues that make the trap fail to seal? One indicator might be whether smells come up from the waste when the shower is in use. If yes, then almost certainly a faulty trap rather than dirt in the trap smelling.

I am, of course, assuming your waste incorporates a trap, in which case applying your friend's suggestion should not be needed.

Blockages are often caused by the cut pipes being left rough internally. The snags can then trap hairs. Purpose-designed shower traps are usually accessible from the top so you shouldn't need access from below, though if it were my own house I would prefer to have access if possible.

If you can smell it in the room below, there may be a fault in your pipework. The pipework should be airtight, so where is the smell coming out?

As far as tray support is concerned, most trays have pedestal/riser kits that would give support not greatly dissimilar to that afforded by your joists, so probably not a great issue.

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

The main issues here seem to be smell and blockage.

A waste trap should prevent smells from the pipework coming up into the room. Is the trap faulty, or are there pipework issues that make the trap fail to seal? One indicator might be whether smells come up from the waste when the shower is in use. If yes, then almost certainly a faulty trap rather than dirt in the trap smelling.

I am, of course, assuming your waste incorporates a trap, in which case applying your friend's suggestion should not be needed.

Blockages are often caused by the cut pipes being left rough internally. The snags can then trap hairs. Purpose-designed shower traps are usually accessible from the top so you shouldn't need access from below, though if it were my own house I would prefer to have access if possible.

If you can smell it in the room below, there may be a fault in your pipework. The pipework should be airtight, so where is the smell coming out?

As far as tray support is concerned, most trays have pedestal/riser kits that would give support not greatly dissimilar to that afforded by your joists, so probably not a great issue.

In my original post I have posted a pic of what’s underneath the shower (I’ll post it again here). I cannot see any trap, there’s just the waste which eventually runs towards a large waste pipe at the toilet area. I think because of the location there possibly wasn’t enough room for a P-trap?

I have not noticed any smell whilst actually using the shower, I’ll pay attention when I have one shortly this morning.

I have wondered wether there’s a gap in the pipework but the room above isn’t airtight. One time when the shower overfilled with a hair blockage (before the runoff angle was corrected) it flooded downstairs, the water escaped through a gap between the shower tray and tiles. You can see the light from the room above clearly through this gap from downstairs looking up. I wondered if that gap was enough for the smell to reach the dining room.

The tray is stone so it’s basically just a large slab that sits on whatever you have below it, there’s no adjustment on it.

As I have a septic system could the smell be caused in a blockage elsewhere? (soil stack?).

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Is it a proper water trap or a mechanical trap eg silicon

As if it’s the silicon type hair / other stuff could be keeping the joint / silicon open so smells are coming through

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

Is it a proper water trap or a mechanical trap eg silicon

View attachment 43971
As if it’s the silicon type hair / other stuff could be keeping the joint / silicon open so smells are coming through

There isn’t a trap on the Upstairs shower that I can see, looks to be waste straight into pipework. Attached a pic to this post. The inline trap mentioned earlier was a suggestion from a friend, I don’t actually have one fitted.

I just had a shower and noticed the smell was there even when the water was running.

My downstairs bathroom as of today is now also smelling, very similar smell to upstairs...
Both the sink and bath in the downstairs room have proper Traps. There’s a toilet/sink/bath in this downstairs room. If I dump the water from the sink in the downstairs bathroom water will gurgle up through the drain into the adjacent bath. Would a siphon trap potentially fix the smell in this room? The bath looks to have a low profile trap and sink a regular p trap.
I’m struggling to understand why the downstairs room could also smell if the units in there all have traps (unless the traps aren’t holding water)? I’ve dumped water down the bath and sink but it still smells rotten.

 

[Roy_66]

There isn’t a trap on the Upstairs shower that I can see, looks to be waste straight into pipework. Attached a pic to this post. The inline trap mentioned earlier was a suggestion from a friend, I don’t actually have one fitted.

I just had a shower and noticed the smell was there even when the water was running.

My downstairs bathroom as of today is now also smelling, very similar smell to upstairs...
Both the sink and bath in the downstairs room have proper Traps. There’s a toilet/sink/bath in this downstairs room. If I dump the water from the sink in the downstairs bathroom water will gurgle up through the drain into the adjacent bath. Would a siphon trap potentially fix the smell in this room? The bath looks to have a low profile trap and sink a regular p trap.
I’m struggling to understand why the downstairs room could also smell if the units in there all have traps (unless the traps aren’t holding water)? I’ve dumped water down the bath and sink but it still smells rotten.

Just s stupid question first: Is the ventilation at the top of the soil stack working ok? And where is it, and if internal is the valve working ok?

I'm thinking worth you getting a Pro in to look at all your waste plumbing.

Just one dumb thought. Could you route the shower waste downstairs a separate route via a trap in a downstairs cupboard where you can periodically undo put a bucket under and pour some bleach down from upstairs.

Other silly question is are you sure the shower waste has no built in trap. It just can't be acceptable not to have one. There are lots of flush trays these days so solutions are avail.

Perhaps for a test for the smells, gaffer tape over he shower waste, open the windows for an hour then shut them, and then see following morning if smells returned around the house.

Is your soil stack internally boxed in or can you a access?

Cheers,

Roy

 

[Ben-gee]

The waste is a trap, it is the vortex type which are a bit like a snail whirl, wirquin’s is “twisto”.
They’re supposed to spin the water around fast into a funnel like a tornado, and this then whizzes everything away - so it “self cleans”.

The are supplied with Mira flight trays and if it’s direct to floor I bin them as I don’t believe in magic. I use a top access trap so hair can be removed, the twisto is difficult to clear - wet vac and bits of wire kind of do it.

However in your case it sounds to me as if the drains may be blocked - have you tried lifting a manhole?

If it were me, as you have the ceiling down I would change that to a top access trap and the patch ceiling- all maintenance can be done from above.

Also need to re silicone if you can see light !

 

[Ric2013]

Just s stupid question first: Is the ventilation at the top of the soil stack working ok? And where is it, and if internal is the valve working ok?

I'm thinking worth you getting a Pro in to look at all your waste plumbing.

Just one dumb thought. Could you route the shower waste downstairs a separate route via a trap in a downstairs cupboard where you can periodically undo put a bucket under and pour some bleach down from upstairs.

Other silly question is are you sure the shower waste has no built in trap. It just can't be acceptable not to have one. There are lots of flush trays these days so solutions are avail.

Perhaps for a test for the smells, gaffer tape over he shower waste, open the windows for an hour then shut them, and then see following morning if smells returned around the house.

Is your soil stack internally boxed in or can you a access?

Cheers,

Roy

Agree with all the above, except the 'dumb thought' paragraph. Whatever my be in the pipework beyond the trap, the trap should not allow these smells to pass back into the room.

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

Just s stupid question first: Is the ventilation at the top of the soil stack working ok? And where is it, and if internal is the valve working ok?

I'm thinking worth you getting a Pro in to look at all your waste plumbing.

Just one dumb thought. Could you route the shower waste downstairs a separate route via a trap in a downstairs cupboard where you can periodically undo put a bucket under and pour some bleach down from upstairs.

Other silly question is are you sure the shower waste has no built in trap. It just can't be acceptable not to have one. There are lots of flush trays these days so solutions are avail.

Perhaps for a test for the smells, gaffer tape over he shower waste, open the windows for an hour then shut them, and then see following morning if smells returned around the house.

Is your soil stack internally boxed in or can you a access?

Cheers,

Roy

I stuck my fingers in the left of this picture and was able to splash about in water suggesting it acts as a trap also (I think?).

Re the soil stack, I have no idea, I have two vents that poke through the tiles in different areas of the house, I would assume one of these is the soil stack (or both?).

The house is shaped like a T, one length only has a ground floor (bathroom), the other length has a ground and 1st floor. Shower room is on the 1st floor in a dormer.

One of the vents I see protruding are above the kitchen (ground floor), I can see a red/brown plastic line running through my loft connecting to it.

The other is above the dormer (1st floor) which contains the upstairs shower room. The house is shaped like a T and there’s no loft in the upper floor where the shower room is at.

Is there an easy way to tell if they’re operating as they should be?

Thanks
[automerge]1591198261[/automerge]

The waste is a trap, it is the vortex type which are a bit like a snail whirl, wirquin’s is “twisto”.
They’re supposed to spin the water around fast into a funnel like a tornado, and this then whizzes everything away - so it “self cleans”.

The are supplied with Mira flight trays and if it’s direct to floor I bin them as I don’t believe in magic. I use a top access trap so hair can be removed, the twisto is difficult to clear - wet vac and bits of wire kind of do it.

However in your case it sounds to me as if the drains may be blocked - have you tried lifting a manhole?

If it were me, as you have the ceiling down I would change that to a top access trap and the patch ceiling- all maintenance can be done from above.

Also need to re silicone if you can see light !

Believe it or not, I had a top access trap before installed by another plumber as a fix.

When the shower room was brand new it started having issues after a few months, I hastily blamed the waste and we got another plumber out to rectify it by swapping it to a top access one. I’ve checked through my photos in my phone and this was the one which flooded the house. It was the run off being angled back to the waste which was the issue more than the waste used. It was when it flooded I removed the plasterboard myself and couldn’t believe the amount of unecessary elbow joints the plumber had installed, then I checked the level too and saw it was running the wrong direction - so got another plumber out to (re)fit the vortex type waste and correct the level.

My other half hated the top access one the plumber installed as it protruded from the tray with a circular pull out (instead of being flush) where the tray has a square recess. Is there any recommendations of a top access one which would allow me to refit the square drain cover so it’s flush with the tray? I’ve included a pic of the current waste with the grille removed.

If there’s any pointers/techniques you can give me for the wet vac and wire I’m all ears! I have a wet vac and a variety of drain snakes/augers to hand.
Would just love to actually get it done from the top. The wastes been great for a year and a half, drains quickly and every time my other half showers it catches a ton of her hair in the grate. The vortex style one wouldn’t be nearly so bad to clear out if it didn’t have a vertical straight section on the outlet side, once the snakes been fed around it always clashes and half the time turns back on itself/pops out - i can just never get the snake by it.

I don’t have manholes that I can access to the best of my knowledge. There’s two scored areas outside in the concrete which look like they head towards my septic tank, and snow never lies on them so I assume that’s my waste outlets but can’t see any way of lifting them without damaging the concrete.

I do intend on getting pro’s out once lockdown is over (and also because I have a new downstairs bathroom for them to install), but right now I feel kind of let down by the original installer and then the guy who came out to fix things initially so want to get as much info as I can from pro’s online first.

I’ve included a picture of the top access waste which was fitted with all the unecessary elbows which even in my uneducated eyes I knew wasn’t great. He maybe routed it like that to save drilling through the joist, I don’t know. I was away from home working when the work was done and came home to the ceiling patched up.

I am confused on why if the shower has a trap, the bath has a trap and the sinks have traps that Im getting bad smells?

Thanks for all the help so far! It’s been great.
[automerge]1591198363[/automerge]

Agree with all the above, except the 'dumb thought' paragraph. Whatever my be in the pipework beyond the trap, the trap should not allow these smells to pass back into the room.

Yes! This is confusing me aswell, I just posted above that if everything has traps, shower/bath/sinks then what’s causing me to get bad smells?

 

[Ric2013]

With regard to the downstairs bathroom, all I can imagine, if the smell is coming from that room, is that either there is something wrong with your waste water drainage system that is causing a positive pressure to develop and force air up past one or more of your traps and into your house, most likely when an upstairs toilet (if there is one) is flushed. If you were in the room when that happened, you'd hear it.

With regard to your shower trap, I'm wondering whether there is a pipework issue along the line that may be sucking out the water in the trap and leaving it unsealed (incidentally, this wouldn't be an issue with a silicone membrane trap, even if they will wear out... eventually), but that doesn't quite fit with the facts in that you seem to think the smell continues to rise from the shower trap while in use. Logically, even if the trap were being sucked dry, the constant trickle of water from the shower would refill the trap instantly.

I'm really interested to follow the further developments on this thread, as I'm now out of ideas and want to know how this ends...

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

With regard to the downstairs bathroom, all I can imagine, if the smell is coming from that room, is that either there is something wrong with your waste water drainage system that is causing a positive pressure to develop and force air up past one or more of your traps and into your house, most likely when an upstairs toilet (if there is one) is flushed. If you were in the room when that happened, you'd hear it.

With regard to your shower trap, I'm wondering whether there is a pipework issue along the line that may be sucking out the water in the trap and leaving it unsealed (incidentally, this wouldn't be an issue with a silicone membrane trap, even if they will wear out... eventually), but that doesn't quite fit with the facts in that you seem to think the smell continues to rise from the shower trap while in use. Logically, even if the trap were being sucked dry, the constant trickle of water from the shower would refill the trap instantly.

I'm really interested to follow the further developments on this thread, as I'm now out of ideas and want to know how this ends...

I’ve been flat out with work so haven’t been able to do much investigation work. If there is a positive pressure issue what can be done to remedy it? - would fitting anti siphon traps on sinks etc help?

What I have noted over the last 2 days is below:

• The eco chemical unblocker I tried did nothing.
• Tried snaking it again from the top (I’m determined to get this 😂) and didn’t get anything apart from a few tiny sludge bits because I couldn’t pass through the waste to get into the pipework.
• The upstairs shower room smell has died right down and practically back to normal. I don’t put this down to snaking, I think it coincides with the weather here cooling down this week and getting more windy.
• The downstairs bathroom is smelling worse.

I am still none the wiser what could be going on haha.

 

[Ric2013]

I’ve been flat out with work so haven’t been able to do much investigation work. If there is a positive pressure issue what can be done to remedy it? - would fitting anti siphon traps on sinks etc help?

What I have noted over the last 2 days is below:

• The eco chemical unblocker I tried did nothing.
• Tried snaking it again from the top (I’m determined to get this 😂) and didn’t get anything apart from a few tiny sludge bits because I couldn’t pass through the waste to get into the pipework.
• The upstairs shower room smell has died right down and practically back to normal. I don’t put this down to snaking, I think it coincides with the weather here cooling down this week and getting more windy.
• The downstairs bathroom is smelling worse.

I am still none the wiser what could be going on haha.

The issue some of us are suspecting with regard to positive pressure is that you have a "Durgo" or air admittance valve on your main soil and vent stack and that this has jammed shut. They do fail eventually, which is why they are never to be found boxed in somewhere inaccessible... oh wait.

Anti-siphon traps... Okay. Let's say you have a washbasin somewhere remote with a long pipe run, or the pipe run is steeper than it should be, or shared by more than one appliance. Bad plumbing basically. Result is the water in the trap gets sucked out by the water running down the pipe and then smells come up. You call one of us out and we say that you've now covered all the pipework in tiling etc and that putting it really right is going to cost a fortune. So that would be when we fit an anti-siphon trap. The most common types incorporate an air-inlet valve or a silicone bladder. They will wear out eventually and are a bit noisy, but it solves your smell issue for several years, so in the circumstances it's a good idea. The silicone bladder types will also prevent positive pressure being forced back into the room, but if you have a fault on your Durgo, that needs to be corrected first - if only because you can't get an anti-siphon trap for your WC.

One thought: you don't have a bidet, bath, washbasin etc that you very rarely use do you? Could be that the water in the associated trap has simply evaporated...

Personally, I'd suggest you tape up everything you aren't using with gaffer tape (not forgetting overflows) and try to find where the problem is coming from. If nothing else, you will avoid smells in the short term. I also think you will need to get a plumber in, but pre-investigative work may help him or her out and save time.

 

[cluelessDIYguy]

The issue some of us are suspecting with regard to positive pressure is that you have a "Durgo" or air admittance valve on your main soil and vent stack and that this has jammed shut. They do fail eventually, which is why they are never to be found boxed in somewhere inaccessible... oh wait.

Anti-siphon traps... Okay. Let's say you have a washbasin somewhere remote with a long pipe run, or the pipe run is steeper than it should be, or shared by more than one appliance. Bad plumbing basically. Result is the water in the trap gets sucked out by the water running down the pipe and then smells come up. You call one of us out and we say that you've now covered all the pipework in tiling etc and that putting it really right is going to cost a fortune. So that would be when we fit an anti-siphon trap. The most common types incorporate an air-inlet valve or a silicone bladder. They will wear out eventually and are a bit noisy, but it solves your smell issue for several years, so in the circumstances it's a good idea. The silicone bladder types will also prevent positive pressure being forced back into the room, but if you have a fault on your Durgo, that needs to be corrected first - if only because you can't get an anti-siphon trap for your WC.

One thought: you don't have a bidet, bath, washbasin etc that you very rarely use do you? Could be that the water in the associated trap has simply evaporated...

Personally, I'd suggest you tape up everything you aren't using with gaffer tape (not forgetting overflows) and try to find where the problem is coming from. If nothing else, you will avoid smells in the short term. I also think you will need to get a plumber in, but pre-investigative work may help him or her out and save time.

Plumber is definitely coming in because we have a new downstairs bathroom suite to be installed once lockdown ends.

The toilet in the downstairs bathroom doesn’t get used because the cistern has cracked the entire length. Rather than replace it I just dump some buckets of water down periodically because we have a brand new toilet boxed in the hallway to go in once the world returns to normality. The downstairs bathroom was getting smelly before that toilet was out of commission though.

Would the pics attached be durgos? I have 2 of these, one above the shower room dormer and the others above my kitchen, I’d always just assumed it was simply capped vents? When I google durgo I can’t say I have anything like that visible anywhere.

For now the smell in both rooms has gone (coincides with the weather getting cooler and wetter) but I still plan on investigating and doing what I can.

Thanks for all the help so far, it’s been much appreciated.

 

[Ric2013]

I think those are.

What I don't get is why bother fitting an air admittance valve (Durgo) externally unless you have windows in the loft? Often these are designed for internal use, and the pipe is normally just left open at the top if terminated externally, perhaps with a bird guard.